Team Five-0 and the New Crimewatch

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An interesting mechanical note: These changes mean, among other things, that it should be possible for outlaws to spider-tank the police in hisec indefinitely. As it is now giving assistance to an outlaw gives you GCC; this will no longer be the case.
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You aren't supposed to say anything about that.
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I see the possibility of high-sec barfights here... Someone loots a can and it cascades into a multiship brawl as more and more people enter the fray to get on kill mails
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As a conscientious capsuleer, the moment I see other capsuleers spider-tanking the faction police, I will drop whatever I'm doing and assist said police in prosecuting those evil-doers to the full extent of local law.Bahahahaha, just kidding, fuck the faction police.
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About time imo, maybe those ~~leet~~ high sec pvp groups will now come down to low/null and show everyone how ~~leet~~ they are.
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You are obv's some fag high sec bear who called him/her self a high sec merc of some sort. Please cry more or grow a pair. These changes are well over due and should make for some very interesting fights and hopefully some high quality fights not only in high sec but low sec to.
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Don't forget the ganking nerf in there. They reduced highsec risk again without reducing highsec reward.
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Your words made me hopeful at first, but I think it'll end up more like a gang bang than a barfight. Looting a can makes you a suspect (legal target to everyone). If someone subsequently shoots you it creates a limited engagement so you can shoot back -- they do not inherit your suspect flag. So such a brawl would be be many-to-one... not many-to-many, which would be more interesting. HOWEVER: the new mechanics allow for games of hot-potato after a suicide gank.
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lol you mean like Noir thought they were doing
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I didn't really think about this aspect, but you can't eject from your ship while under fire now.If this was done retroactively, i would be down 6 pods and 3 ships.Most people in that fly tech 3's in non-fleet fights eject when they are about to die. It prevents them from losing the skill points. I've even ejected ships in wormholes when i was being attacking in sites, because I either saw a Dictor or HAC on scan, i dont want to lose my pod in addition to my ship! So i eject and warp to my pos. Heck i've had 3 ships "taken" from me.Read PJ's post on it, one of the few non-adventure/journal posts:http://www.tigerears.org/2012/...
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Interesting. A few thoughts came to mind."When you steal from a can, everyone can shoot at you."Does that apply to wrecks also (logically it should) ? If so it will have huge consequences on the whole industry of industrial ganking. I can imagine people camping the gates in Uedama and Niarja with fast-locking ships to try and kill looters. Then again it might encourage people to use Transport Ships with their natural dual WCS.... or just to kill the ganked hauler wreck and forget profit."The Weapons Flag [...] keeps you from switching ships or even ejecting."I assume that storing a ship in a SMA is included there ?"Shooting and destroying ships in lowsec [...] no longer gives you GCC."No more need for Orca camping lowsec entry points then. On the other hand, fast-locking spider-tanking gang of covert tech 3 might well become the norm.
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oh noooooooooo
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There is some degree of valid concern that some people will PVP less in hisec because they're over-concerned about getting ganked, but chances are there will be more PVP in the end, not less. The environment and mechanics are attractive to people who are used to fighting in lower security space who are familiar with fighting everyone at once.The very idea that CCP has any plans to make EVE closer to WoW in any way is laughable and wrong.
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Ahh... no. 1) The new system is actually very simple; the only reason it appears complicated is that there are a lot of use cases to cover. 2) TiDi will become much LESS of a factor because there are as fewer things to check as there are people in system. Squared.
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Well I see a hand in this from the CSM, EVE University been after something like this of a long time in high sec. I think that the high sec stuff can be layed on that door step.Also the looting thing is a direct result of the out of corp alts looting durning the burn jita event. Speaking of we need another one after this comes out. Talk about epic losses as the wreaks agro any one that loots, its a real blood fest this time. Heck put some dead space stuff in a can 50k off the undock, and get your pvp/gank thrill in mass.I wonder how much isk we can lose this time.
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Overall the changes look pretty good and it will be great to have more logical rules for hi sec ganking and an end to the confusing mess that is sec status.Unfortunately for Null Sec, CCP masterplan is intent on breaking dictors yet again since dictor bubbles now automatically get a W flag even if nobody warps in the bubble.
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As a dictor pilot I like not being aggressed when I put up bubbles, but it does make sense that you get aggression when you have an AoE warp disruption effect that stops people from being able to warp (whether they do or not). You are agressing them as if you have locked and activated a warp disruptor on each one of them. You just get the benefit of not having to wait for lock times and warp stabs don't counter it (not to mention the number of mid slots you would need to point some groups).Warp disruptors give aggression whether the pointed ship tries to warp or not, so I can see why a dictor bubble should too. On the bright side, you should get credit on killmails for anybody that gets trapped in one of your dictor bubbles this way.
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You're quite right, it *could* result in more PvP, but I see a group of people who want to engage in PvP but only when they have a significant upper hand and with a lot of the potential consequences mitigated (neut RR, station games). That is what Highsec PvP is largely like, with a few exceptions (RvB as one).A lot of the people who want PvP but don't go to lowsec, nullsec, or WHs (which are a haven of PvP with less or no game enforced consequences for engaging in shooting each other) don't go there because they're not the big badasses in those places, they're just one of many people who like shooting ships.If most highsec PvPers were really ok with taking on the full consequences of their activities, they would have left highsec already. So I guess the old saying applies: Nothing of value was lost.
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YesYesYes. Though I don't know about the spider T3 thing, it could totally become viable since you're now technically able to just go through the gate.
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I completely disagree with your assessment. While I understand that that's the high and lordly opinion of virtually everyone who PVP's outside hisec these days, and while there are certainly a fair share of cowardly dicks in hisec, there are clearly a lot of things about hisec and the people who PVP there that you don't understand.Not only that, but the change of environment wouldn't simply drive cowards away from what they're doing, even if you WERE right. It would also attract the crowd that is used to fighting in lowsec and nullsec, since it now more closely resembles those environments.
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High-sec dwellers by and large are risk averse as they can possibly be, that being said the old argument that 'my PvP is better than your PvP' is absolutely retarded, kill people, rejoice and have fun.Fuck those few that have to have their lofty view on how they choose to engage in the violencing of someone else's space faring vessel.
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There's still the one minute weapons timer that won't let you through the gate, gcc or not.
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I was using that as an example as the Orca thing is always done on a hisec gate. On a lowsec/lowsec gate people feel more comfortable because they at least have a chance of survival on the other side, but on hisec gates you gotta fight your way out, store the ship in an Orca, or jump through and die to Concord.
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You're quite right that not all highsec PvPers are "cowardly dicks", but notice that I said "A lot of the people", not "all the people".There are people who live in nullsec/lowsec/WHs who have highsec alts to get the different experience that highsec PvP provides. I'm particularly impressed by people that kill can baiters in T3s with their mining barges, or who kill Megathrons with an Iteron. I also know plenty of nullsec people who make their income suicide ganking. That sort of thing just couldn't happen outside highsec's limiting rules of engagement, but ultimately highsec will always be the cut-down "PvP lite" of EVE PvP.
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Say goodbye to the bubble then jump again
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Not quite accurate. According to the spec you can't eject with a Weapons Flag, which is caused by YOU firing, and by the looks of it only at a player target. If you're shot at by someone else, even while shooting NPCs you can still eject.
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KK, thanks, I'm going to start re-reading blogs before posting from now on :p

A year ago we began hearing the first official hints of CCP's plans to re-work EVE's criminality and aggression management system: the game engine known as Crimewatch. Yesterday, CCP MasterPlan posted a quite thorough and detailed update on Team Five-0's current designs for the new system's deployment with Retribution in December.

Hang with me here, Crimewatch is not a simple topic.

MasterPlan outlined the salient points they wanted to achieve with the new system: simplicity, robustness, and performance. If the system is simple enough with clear-cut rules there should be little to no opportunity for bugs and exploits, plus it ought to be easy to figure out. CCP is being abundantly clear that the main desire behind these changes are to make it as smooth a transition as possible; if you can do something now, ideally you should be able to do it afterwards one way or another. So:

Let's pretend the Crimewatch update has been released as described. What exactly has changed?

  • Aggression flags have been simplified. When you steal from a can, everyone can shoot at you, not just the owners. They can pod you, too. This is called the Suspect Flag, and it lasts 15 minutes; it's kind of like GCC Lite. As long as you don't do anything horribly illegal, you can still kill all kinds of people without ever getting a Criminal Flag (GCC).
  • Logistics and other remote assistance will get the same timers as the person they are repping, including the one that keeps you from docking in the station or jumping (now called the Weapons Flag). The Weapons Flag now not only keeps you from docking or jumping for 60 seconds after aggressing another player, it keeps you from switching ships or even ejecting.
  • Anyone fighting NPC's will have a 15 minute timer that prevents their ship from disappearing when they log off, same as if they had been shooting players. The main difference here is that this timer cannot be extended indefinitely if you were to probe out their logged-off ship: you have to kill it before the timer is up or they will disappear like normal.
  • Losing security status does not automatically = CONCORD. It's possible to lose security status in hisec by giving remote assistance to someone with a Suspect Flag or Outlaw security status (under -5.0).
  • Shooting and destroying ships in lowsec no longer gives killrights, but it no longer gives you GCC either. You lose all the security status you are going to lose the moment you start shooting and begin to take sentry gun fire, but once you leave the sight of the sentry guns they will not continue to shoot you on your return until you commit new crimes. You can safely jump through the gate into hisec without being CONCORDed if you aren't a criminal and NPC police will not interfere, though you will still be a Suspect there (and thus shootable by every player).
  • Shooting innocents in hisec, and pods in lowsec, DOES give you Criminal Flag, same as ever. This time the full security status hit is given immediately. Regardless of whether the victim returns fire or whether you succeed in killing the victim, they will have kill-rights (which, we are hinted, will have good uses in the bounty system!)
  • All aggression flags and timers will be carried over between systems no matter what. At least, that is the plan. Those of you who have been praying for this, you know who you are.

What hasn't changed? You can still shoot back at anyone who shot you; that will always be legal. In fact, you can even pod them now.

These are great changes, making sweeping fixes to everything from the near-invulnerability of neutral logistics to the undue complexity and bugginess of obfuscated aggression chains. Of course there are also numerous people expressing fears that their livelihood and interests will be crushed by these changes.

  • "What about 1v1s on the station? How can I possibly fight when taking a can means everyone can shoot me?" CCP MasterPlan knows your fears. Team Five-0 has high priorities set on making sure that there is a dueling system in place, if not immediately upon release, then As SoonTM As Possible. Not only that, but duels after the changes will be cleaner and imbued with 100% more Honour: anyone remote repping one of the combatants will receive both a 60 second Weapon Flag preventing them from docking but a Suspect Flag making them attackable by everyone.
  • "What about baiting missioners and miners?" Well, remember: everyone will be able to shoot you. This only makes them safer, right? Be creative. I'm sure you have a friend who can convince the poor missioner that 'help' is on the way.
  • Finally... why would all these changes need to happen? Why, when we just had the game figured out, does CCP have to pull the rug out from under us and wreck the game all over again?

It is understandable that not everyone wants to go along with the outlined changes (or at least not all of them), but the developers' reasoning is clear: the system as it exists today is simply too complicated. As someone who has spent the last two or three years pushing its boundaries day in and day out I can attest that there are far scarier things you can do with the system than most people realize. There are many esoteric jukes and tricks in 'Crimewatch 1.0' you can use to screw over your opponent or turn the fight in your favor, such as extending aggression indefinitely on wrecks and drones or killing someone for repping you by first committing a crime against yourself.

Equally so there are intrinsic bugs in the system that just can't be fixed as is: aggression takes a while to carry between systems, some actions may or may not flag you arbitrarily, and my friends and I have on occasion been CONCORDed without warning for doing something we had just done five times. Crimewatch 1.0 is a byzantine ruleset that results in situations that are even more complicated and takes a lot of experience to fully get the hang of.

Even ignoring those issues with the system, the fact remains that aggression graphs (systems where anyone may or may not be able to shoot anyone else at any given time) are mathematically difficult to simulate. Every time a fight in empire space doubles in size there is at least 4 times as much work that needs to be done just to check if anyone has gone GCC. A certain spontaneous lowsec fleet fight caused TiDi to the tune of 10% for nearly an hour in some highsec pipeline systems as the node strove to bear up under the load of all the Crimewatch checks it suddenly needed to complete.

I believe that these changes, properly implemented, could be a huge boon to hisec and lowsec PVP. The potential for large and bloody fights is eminently present in the rules and we can only hope that is what will happen.

If you have more questions or want to read it all from the horse's mouth, check out MasterPlan's awesome DevBlog and the associated comment thread for his clarifications (keep clicking that Dev ribbon!).

[name_1]
I am a member of Project Nemesis, a small and dedicated PVP organization with a long and storied history. I have an in-depth knowledge of ship fitting, small gang warfare, and most game mechanics. I have a strong interest in improving hisec warfare.