Shadoo on Wargames

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Fake Wars with fake spaceships. TEST has become exactly what it didn't want to be a bloated bloc that's too scared to pick fights and instead worrying about jewing and its isk/hour ratio. If you want to fight a fucking war then fight one for fucks sake.
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World of Warcraft battlegrounds. Thanks, Pandemic Legion.
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Wait... PL got DRAGGED into the Drone Region Wars? Kicking and screaming and all?Right...
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Against who, and why? Thats the entire problem, theres nothing to fight over and no reason to do it, because every war thats fought in EVE now is not actually fought, its a series of blueball events where one side attempts to mass enough forces to avoid a fight by having overwhelmingly superior numbers.The fights basically never really happen, or at best happen once a month, what happens in the meantime is simply players doing the unfun job of shooting millions of hit points.Here's a secret, all of your FC's are sick and tired of shooting structures, and should you pick new FC's out that will lead your fleets the old FCs (the good ones) will descend on them like a pack of jackals because theres finally a target stupid enough to stand still while the rest of us shoot it.Its a position that the game makers have allowed the game to enter, and the players that do all the heavy lifting (you know, not you) are doing the best they can with a bad situation.Sorry you don't like it, but then again you as a person aren't doing anything to change it are you?No, no you aren't.
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I think it would be brilliant and tons of fun to cram 30,000 players into Cloud Ring. Part of the magic in Delve is staging in 1DH and having 600 TESTies 3 jumps away. 3 JUMPS AWAY. Imagine having 600 dudes each in 6 different systems all within 3 jumps all with aching balls looking for release!? Make it happen Shadoo show us the way
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Sorry the peanut gallery doesnt get to post about who should grind what sov, why dont you blog about it
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Nothing stops the mighty Poetic Stanziel from getting off his super fat ass and doing something to change the game environment, only you don't, you, like Rob3r from test, simply sit around bitching and complaining that other people won't do what you want.
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I have to admit this sounds really good. I really hope you can organise this as ill gladly come along for organised good fights with some kind of overall objective. I would like to hear a little more on your idea's on your objectives but overall I love the idea.
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you should find a region with someone no one cares about. Like geminate. And declare it the sov arena. Then whoever grinds it first wins.The added bonus is its so close to jita you'll have random asshole roams and also easy resupply.
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"Fake Wars with fake spaceships"? Are you kidding me? Of course all the wars and all the spaceships are fake, EVE is a god damn video game.
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"What do you think?" let's do it martini right on the still warm corpse of exe COME ON
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Hey guise lets avoid shitty sov grinds by grinding an entire region that no one wants and no one would keep afterwards
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That's the point, it's entirely fucking stupid to setup wargames in a fucking game.
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I love everyone shitting on this idea because it's dumb. Yes it is dumb but it's a hell of a lot better than formup wars followed by sitting and staring at a structure getting shot for 10 minutes knowing you're only going to do it again in two days.
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But with real ships that actually get destroyed, without rules limited the 'fairness' and most importantly, when PL can fed up of having their arses kicked and drop all of the Titans and screw the rules, what the '[expletive]' is anyone going to do about it
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Basically, as it's very easy to read my friend -- we're saying the current system is so old and so well known -- people like you will never have any chance to compete.And the existing forces have reached an equilibrium of space/assets they own with no reason to fight over resources.But instead of doing nothing, we're pointing out that the sandbox has become UN symposium and perhaps in order to give new people a chance at playing -- how about we knock over the box and throw new toys in for everyone to figure out.Or do you simply prefer us to keep quiet, and keep doing what we're doing?
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Newbee here, possibly dumb idea: why don't the coalitions just vent their frustrations on hi-sec? Like, to run with Shadoo's sandbox metaphor, wouldn't the best demonstration of the sandbox over-spilling be to get sand all over Empire's nicely trimmed lawn? It would be one of the best expressions of just how absolutely soul-crushingly awful sov war is, that tens of thousands of players would rather throw themselves at CONCORD and various faction polices rather than fight World War I in space. I mean, the majority of EVE's players are in hi-sec, and so it would definitely be the most public way in-game to draw attention to an issue. If one alliance (namely Goonswarm; I don't know if the CFC as it is today existed back then, I know there were other 0.0 groups involved) could basically shut down Jita for a week, what could all of the manpower and moon goo-backed riches of the entirety of sov space bring down upon hi-sec? I'm popping a boner just thinking about it.
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No really, he's a clueless shit heel and a windbag to boot, but you seem to like the taste of his cock so do continue.
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So go out and do it, you can do things on your own right? You don't need your hand held by us cockblockers do you?Oh, you're a lazy fuck who literally cant do anything on his own? I for one am dying of shock
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Prearranged fights are shit. They're godawful things. However I am an FC that recently finished a sov grind. Now I'm balls deep in another one. You know how much work I'm willing to put into the grindfest that would be the HBC VS CFC war? I'd be willing to hotdrop the enemy grind fleet when they got bored and sloppy. No more than that. You know how the FC on the other side of the fence probably feels? About the same way.I haven't heard a single person say, "I'm willing to FC the years of grind for the war." I'm not even talking about competent FCs. Noone has volunteered. You know why? Because if you're going to play EVE full time as a jobless bum, then you might as well do fun things while you're doing it. If you want to do full time work, go out and find someone to pay you a wage to repeat painful repetitive tasks.
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That's a fairly easy thing to say when your view is filtered through however many rose-colored tech/plat/neo/dyspro moon POS bubbles you have, powering any manner of SRPs which allow your grunts to respawn and fight again without feeling much sting on a personal level, like it's just another round of team deathmatch in *name a classic FPS*I'm not at all trying to detract from your idea, I'm just pointing out that while the financial wherewithal for the Big 3 to do this is tangible, your assertion is that massive wars being financially irrelevant is the rule and not the exception. It's this financial wherewithal that ~everyone not you~ lacks, which leads to losses being real, which leads to lack of motivation and hesitation to commit lots of ISK on their part... or if they do try, their war machine eventually arrives at a starved, rageposting end.So if this Thunderdrome: CR thing - 0.0's equivalent to shooting a monument in Jita - actually happens, I'm sure we'll see lots of stuff dying, some comedy losses, and some headline-grabbing fights... but in the end some rich duders will walk away 10 tech moons richer and the rich losers will walk away with only slightly less reactions to maintain or a few fewer weekly Viator runs of raw goo to Jita. Certainly nobody will be capitulating because they're flat broke either in wallet or in will, and let's face it... that is what should really be the endgame.
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Just another gay solution to get really cracking and fight the damn war.It's just damn ridiculous to read about "war is too much effort, but we want good fights" and then look what has happened really on sov map. War has been OK always when it has been easy either HBC or CFC, but now, when there is opponent who could actually match their size, it's suddenly huge fucking pain in the ass.The reality is, that if opponent plays scorched earth tactic, there shouldn't be problem at this scale. If you really coordinate well grinding, the only one who will have hard fucking pain in the ass is FC's and their assistants. With 1000 dreads/supers grinding one region simultaneously, it wouldn't take much longer than grinding couple systems with small alliance. The real question is, can you pull it off without failing, or are you too scared of it and put your men through securely grinding all the regions system by system?
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to me , its a trap , in oder to create an easy entrance for HBC and N3 in CFC' s territory. we should do it in the drone regions. otherwise i dont buy it !
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Why do we want to start a war when there is nothing the other has that we want?Given how little fights actually happen in a REAL war (see: Delve/Querious/Catch) -- what possible reason would we have to start one just got few fights and endless blueballs/well known sov delay tactics aimed at boring the other side to giving up?
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Believe it or not, this idea is thrown around more than you can think between coalition leadership. It's probably only a matter of time before it actually happens. Especially if nullsec remains the way it is.
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we have nothing to lose in trying it for 2 weeks, even if im not sure of the idea im willing to see if it works, once the 2 weeks is up then shit on the idea if you still don't agree
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Pubbie faggots from Highsec need not post
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What's fake about saying: "Hey, lets all move to a SINGLE REGION in EVE and go: sup?".All we're doing is cutting out the boring 30 jumps you have to roam in 0.0 in order to see someone that's not a bot, in the off chance they happen to want to form to shoot you.You can come at us for being lazy: I fully admit it. But fake? Please... This is just as fake as rest of the game we all play.
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Hah! Alterac Valley bridge-grind! Just as much of a pain in the arse as structure grind, that's for sure.
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I think I generally agree with this idea and base it on the human desire to "not lose". I think more damaging than the years long grind would be a side actually losing. I don't see "king's of the hill" sticking with the game after they're dethroned and the sandbox is entirely geared towards making kings and dethroning them.Maybe what we need is new hills to fight over. But we'd still have to drain everyone's reserve assets.
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So how many people actually raging about this are there that live in nullsec? :cripes: If you haters really feel that we nullsecers are ruining the game by holding "war games" then by all means please invade us and show every nullsec alliance what a "real" sov war is. Seriously, make our day.
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I don't think CCP can solve human nature. EVE has paralleled real life politics almost exactly. The people that have risen to power early will do anything to hold onto it. Things have snowballed. So what should be done is admit that the real problem affecting sov is the inability of smaller groups to affect it. Being able to project more power at a single point shouldn't win you sov, but it does. Until that is fixed, it is blue balls or blob. Jump freighters and the like have eliminated the idea of the supply line, which is the traditional basis around which almost any smaller force attacks a larger one. That will bring back the fights.You want conflict, you want excitement, that comes from putting something at risk. I'm sure all the players in the major alliances are chomping at the bit waiting for something to actually happen in a war rather than this neverending train of reasons why people shouldn't fight.I understand this is just a way for all the pilots in the major alliances to shoot this gigantic load that has been building up forever but let's call it what it is. You can't really do that though, because then people would realize it was the leaderships fault they have unexciting pvp and they have to resort to this.
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Fight Club 40k
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1984 in Space
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I don't live in null but this is a glorious idea and I hope you null-dwelling bastards do it. Seriously. I want to see glowing great balls of fire all across Cloud Ring when I open my map and set it to heatmap ship kills.Make bigger balls than Burn Jita, 23/7. Do it. Please.
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No, no shadoo, i want malpais so i can rent it out :)
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Cloud Ring has the best geography of the sov-null regions for this kind of thing. "Corners" with pipes running between them. I'm looking forward to watching this happen. CCP action on the sov-stagnation would be nice too (speaking as a strictly NPC-0.0 pilot who would consider a more sane [IMO] sov system)
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Maybe its just what this game needs, all the old blood to get involved in a soul grinding years long sov war that they all quit from. Then another cycle of null can occur, and everyones happy
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No the "shock" is really shadoo's "cock" your dying on.
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Making a good sovereignty system that works for everyone in eve is impossible. Eve is just to "small", i put it in quotations because the game world is certainly big enough for everyone, however it is just to easy to get across like the real world. In 1984, serenity, and tranquility you have only 3 super groups who run everything because the world is to easy to get across. In ancient times large empires couldn't conquer the whole world no matter their strength because it's just to damn hard to travel and control large territories, much like Eve in the past where capitals, JF's, and titan bridges were so rare, but that changed making it so one power could easily absorb everyone creating the current coalition situation.The only way to break up these super coalitions is a complete reworking on how travel is accomplished in eve, it takes to little time and effort to cross space. Yea it is logistically hard but easy from a strategic point of view. Jump drives make long distance travel trivial and large forces can easily cross vast distances within an hour without a titan bridge. The entire stargate network needs to be rethought because there are no barriers in eve, no mountains to cross or chokepoints to hold, just a flat field held by 3 guys you can't hide from.
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i think i like this idea, but 1000 player fights are not fun just laggy as hell
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This is the ned result of evolution, like minded people work togheter to achieve their goals and succeed most times wich prrove that evolution is right and you are wrong
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I can see the reasoning behind this, but it wasn't made clear whether smaller groups - if there are any - can get in on this or if hot dropping people in Deklein or Fountain is still allowed.Just some things that would be interesting to know.
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Why? Because sov warfare sucks? Is that why something like half of 0.0 is changing hands in the span of less than a year, because sov warfare sucks?
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im glad im in w-space
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It was a J5 leak, which you should take with a grain of salt to begin with, and GSF/CFC directors like to joke about personal tech moons and such. She doesn't have a personal tech moon, and even if she did, the income from a single tech moon is hardly something that would net you much from RMT, besides a permanent ban.edit: If you're referring to this line - (10:06:51 PM) rydis: like remember that time we got up a fleet of 900? its because that was my personal tech - she's obviously joking here.
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TLDR.... Eve is old, and has 100 000 players, we NEED the BIG one that makes us all bittervets. I doubt this game will live another decade, let's make it's last years the most glorious ever.
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This'll last all of two weeks tops until somebody throws a temper tantrum and the war is on for real.Which is exactly what the involved parties hope for, I'm going to bet. Delicious casus belli.
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500000
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Yup, I was wrong, and I'm happy to have been corrected. I like the idea that people are putting in the efforts they do for the love of the game rather than RMT.
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1: Shit in high-sec2: Billion isk bounty on your head3: cross-coalition warfarerinse and repeat?
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Burn jita was such an event, and yeah it forced ccp .. in the wrong direction. They made it harder to gank people and now are talking about "non mutual wardecs to be forbidden". I.e. crap changes ...
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If this is your first night in cloud ring ... you have to fight!
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Oh yeah, it's an awesome idea. Unless of course you own Cloud Ring, and don't want 600 fuckwits in your space.
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The fact that it is possible is a flaw in CCP's game design.
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It would be a mistake to do this in 0.0. That is where CCP relegates pilots that want more from the sandbox then just missions and incursions. Like you said.. the sandbox is over flowing. Wargames should take place in Black Rise. Most of it is with-in JF range of Jita so logistics will be silly easy.Might also get some fights from entities such as militia and others. Anyone able to put together a fleet of 100+ BC and bigger should be allowed a spin at the wheel.Sov grind is taken off the table and a non issue.Low sec nerf's to supers.Also, 17 Tech moons in the region if you still want something on the table. Not sure who they belong to at present but if they can be flipped. 10 to one corp, 7 to another corp. Corp's could be transferred at the end when all is tallied up. 10 moons to 1st, 7 moons to 2nd, mats mined from the 17 moons during the 2 weeks to 3rd. Everyone gets something. It is agreed they are off limits to be recapped for x months.
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I can tell you something that can be won with that pot of isk: pure pride. Pride that you made a difference, that you took part of a movement that meant something and in the end reshaped the political landscape in EVE and made your mark.Nope, here, you are fighting for isk that will get you more ships so you can throw them back into the arena to get more isk to get more ships to throw back into the arena to get more isk to get more ships to throw back into the arena...I predict it won't be long before people are also fed up with staged PvP as well.
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can't be won*
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Honor duel at the sun. No supers.
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It's vein, mate. Poetic must have hit a vein.
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Misdirected. CCP care about getting headlines; this will get EVE headlines. They won't spin this as "Our sov system has officially been classified as an illegal interrogation method by Amnesty International", they'll spin this as "emergent gameplay butterfly effect hunger games player narratives come and play EVE naow!"If Shadoo actually wanted to make a point and use this event force CCP's hand, he'd be calling for an organised "Fuck hi-sec" campaign. A week of blap tornado / gank catalyst / etc gangs camping mission & trade hubs would do the trick very nicely, and would generate the kind of press that can't be handwaved away.
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It's so genius. Arranged fights, rather than avoided ones. The hitpoints in your hull and the next thirty seconds; rather than the trillions in a grind and the next three years. Racing pulse, over near coma.To be able to defeat an adversary, then come back and do it again and again all day.. Grind proves an organizations will to endure. Most here still standing have proved this well enough. To blueball blueballs, it's about damn time. Sov structure exists to generate fighting in the most part. if the players elect to fight amongst themselves, the system becomes redundant. I welcome this concept with delight and relief.
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It's "dumb" because it won't achieve its stated objective (motivate CCP to change the sov system). Scince Shadoo *isn't* dumb, then there is another unstated objective behind this proposal.
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I know, why don't you select two tributes from the 13 districts and have a fight for the death!? May the odds forever be in your favor!
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Can't wait. Really.
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Battlegrounds comming to Eve !Good read and many will agree and many will disagree, cant please everyone.We can only hope CCP will take actions and change current sov mechanics, not only for the big coalitions but also for new blood that want to make a move to null sec and are wiped out before they even had a chance to take sov.Lots of changes are needed when you look at SOV...
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thats what I believe too. This wargame scenario as critical statement is not comparable with 20 Titans doomsday a Carrier which points directly to a Game Mechanic Issue. This time the whole matter is much more complex because it is an emergent gameplay issue that leads to mentioned equilibrium. Wargaming won't point to a problem and show CCP what actually is wrong. CCP can only change game mechanics which hopefully lead to other forms of playing the game. But Wargaming will (if not seen as "emergent gameplay hunger games") only show that current forms of playing the game is shit but it dont show what game mechanic is to blame for it. Thus said wargaming will fail in its honorable attempts
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So you're calling yourselves cockblockers? Because I didn't.Anyway, we all know that without the commitment of the leadership of at least one of the blocks, this war won't happen. There's no excuse for not providing content when you have all the means for it and are so filthily rich that there's little risk to it.
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All I see here is people who are afraid of losing what they have.Seriously, "we don't want the grind", "we will be burned out", "we don't want to go through that".All this tells me is that you are afraid that others will step up once you actually start fighting and take over your fat ass positions on the tech moons because... lo and behold, you actually have to fight for things for your income for the first time in a year or two.Here is a handkerchief for your eyes with some warm milk and cookies. Now get out there and fight the SOV wars - get fights with meaning in them, with actual losses - get fights that will make you want to quit the game, make you burned out, make you scream for release because: That's what holding SOV is all about.Not this whiny shit where you want to be able to take all SOV over night with no grinding - what would be the purpose of holding SOV then? If it came with no effort?In other words: Grow some balls.
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Resume.Shadoo is the main designer of the game. CCP are just a support team.
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Isn't it about time that CCP ban shampoo from the game before he ruins it any more?PL cheat, deceive, manipulate, scam every aspect of the game. There is bound to be a scam involved in this somewhere, or something where PL will gain a big advantage. They created a blue doughnut for their RMT which is rife in PL, whole corps set-up for botting as wellPL only won the alliance tournament by cheatingNow shampoo wants to create game content, to manipulate more players/corps/alliancesI feel like a lion in a cage being feed meat from the gamekeeper shadoo, Players want to go out and hunt and create their own scenarios, with real objectives and real earnt rewards, not fairytale false scenario's created by shadoo, cause his bored, cause his alliance is blue to everyone, to protect his precious TECH and RMT
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> ccp [...] now are talking about "non mutual wardecs to be forbidden".That sounds scary. do you have a source for that?
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PS.: I still love you and your rage Grath, but your alliance is part of the problem when it could easily be part of the solution.
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The difference is there is no risk and no reward. God forbid you actually have to do some hard work to gain tangible assets like sov and tec moons.
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The argument of a many year long war against CFC is absolutely fucking retarded. The war would be over in 3-4 months max. All of eve will dog pile on CFC once it starts and once they are morally fucked (which will take 1 month max) then its a structure shoot while goons are hiding in empire. The only reason PL dont want to commit is because Shadoo enjoys sliding his man-thing between Mittens cheeks. Do people really forget the previous BobIT wars who were meant to be untouchable? CFC arent even a shadow of what Bob had in the past but I can bet anything (even my virginity) that Mittens ass crack is well lubed with Shadoo's lovestick.
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Pissing on Hi-sec is not gonna change what happens to Sov 0.0, and would only serve as a mild distraction, then when your board of that, then what?Answer: You're right back to the same old boring shit where you left Sov 0.0 in the first place.No, Sov 0.0 needs changed (several of them actually) as referenced by the several excellent articles on this subject on this site alone (let alone all the bitching on Eve-O, and other places). Ship rebalancing has been doin wonders to keep folks busy trying out new fleet doctrines and stuff, but it still isn't fixing the core problems of Sov 0.0.
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"I think we all know that this war cannot be stopped, it is coming"This keeps my nipples hard..
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VFK by Feburary right? Ask the last group how well that worked.
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I would be up for it.Although I think a month would be a better time frame considering the logistics involved.Also I don't think we would want to stop after a week if it was working. (read: generating goodfites)
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Sorry, didn't read past the first paragraph of bullshit excuses.
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Epic sperglord attacking other peoples badposting...priceless.
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3T in ships that will be replaced by tech that will never be put at risk...nice damage control but you should just stop. Boone in eve has any respect left for you or your hasbeen alliance.
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I've already spoken to yo concerning this and what I feel would result in some fun for competing alliances and it would consist of a tier system with 3 tiers.1. Tier 1 = Station break out scenerio where smaller alliances get a smaller allotted point pool to pull from but the objective is to get about 100 dudes in a BC fleet with maybe a carrier to support.2. Tier 2 = POS defense / offense This would be a BS fleet with capital support worth of points.3. Tier 3 = Total system control with a station. This would have the highest allotted points allowing for supers to be fielded.As for prizes, there would be a pool after entry fees are accepted and all alliances can enter any tier they wish provided they have the income to support entering all 3. Alliances could have the potential to win each bracket.There would be an honorable mention for alliances who get the most total kills for the war as well as other constellation prizes such as holdings and potentially ships/isk/blink rewards? The point is, we could get a ton of the player driven content outside of EVE to participate as well. For the most part, it would pay for itself and potentially be a source of revenue for the hosting alliances who manage the services associated with the event. It would need to feel and be different from the alliance tournament where it would scale to alliance/bloc level warfare and be the type of thing where anything goes. Watching alliances inventing with unique ways to escalate your engagements would lead to some interesting fights.
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Sadly, as the SoCo proved in the last Delve war, even when everything is on the line, people still don't fight.
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Isn't your concern based out of idealism rather than realism though?I mean, conversely, who would you argue currently play a game in EVE that has alot of risk involved in it? It doesn't really matter what scale you play at, there is risk-minimalization across the board.I'm not saying there are not people who play high-stakes, but you seem to assume that there is a vast majority who do while Shadoo would be an exception. In reality, Shadoo play a game with an above average set of stakes - since losing Supers with moon-backing is still more risky than losing Cruisers with no backing.Trends in the playerbase, and direction in the development, see everything shifting from high stakes to risk-adversity.So once more, who would you argue play a high stake game?The people who do are most likely very few, small, old tradition-clamouring groups who continue to lose HACs because they enjoy flying the class, or possibly those small-gang groups that actually use high-value assets like Supers. Those are the risk takers. There is absolutely no risk at all involved with flying Tech I subcaps. The groups who do take risk also do it based on three principles: A) they can afford to do it, which is basicly your criticism of Shadoo reproduced and adapted to another scale, B) they are stupid and refuse to adapt (while CCP encourage more effective-, lower-risk, styles of gameplay) and C) because they are idealistic, enjoy the thrill of taking risks and do that by flying ships they can't easily replace, while taking on tactical challenges, despite it being counter-productive: solely for their own personal enjoyment of experiencing loss.See, I've been apart of C or maybe a mixture of A, B and C, for a long time. Alot of the people who are like me also realize that while they can impact their own enjoyment that way they can't really impact the game, they can't expect interesting targets and fights; they can only provide and hope to get something interesting in return. Most of the times those pilots dwindle off into larger alliances or lower-risk gameplay because they experience a hopelessness in their ability to impact. Playing cat-and-mouse games with a larger group of generic ships and tactics is only entertaining for so long... so they adapt to the encouraged gameplay, rather than the other way around. It rarely has to do with having poor results, getting killed, outmatched or whatever, but rather a slow realization of it's meaninglessness - the same thing that Shadoo is outlining among the larger blocks here.That is also why i question your sense of majority here. Who exactly embodies your ideal in EVE today? Hardly anyone, from solo to large block.You can bleet about Tech and Neo moons all you like, but in the end... don't kid yourself into beliving that there are non-holding groups who risk more or are somehow encouraged or required by the game to risk more. The vast majority who do not hold moons (and the majority that do, as well) fly free, fully insured, ships most of the time, regardless if they are political actors or small-gang lowsec roamers.
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Chickens or eggs: Isn't it the other way around though Nc.?You have smaller groups with high FC/c (and Super/c) counts streaming into larger groups as the smaller groups are marginalized by the numbers game. They stream into alliances that share a common background and ideals more similar to their own.Isn't both your alliance and Grath's alliance the two most glaring examples of that?Isn't the true problem the fact that those groups can't impact the game on their own anymore at the benefit of 2000-man alliances without aspirations of their own.Isn't that part of what Shadoo is trying to point out in his article? The tedium of SOV wars can be seen equally as the tedium of the SOV system (multiple timers), the structure grind (timers and HP-pools) and the upscaling (the value of numbers and the subsequent drop in FC/c that assumes moving a larger mass of players and player resources that resonate with lower frequency).
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Grath, you really should just leave the damage control to shadoo. You come off as his yappy little puppy dog trying to be more significant than you ever could hope to be.
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Wouldn't you say, i forgot to add, that all those three sides of SOV wars root in specific problems on the development side?The multiple timers of Dominion Sov? CCP. They left it half-finished. The economy-to-hitpoints on structures? CCP. They've left it to rot, and still reproduce it.The economy-to-size of ships? CCP. They're still designing evasively around the problem.These are all issues being argued and exemplified here. Not that i care very much about the outlook of a War game for CFC, HBC and N3, but when it comes down it... are those not the three issues the War game assumes to illuminate?Ignore SOV timers.Avoid POS grinds.Amass ALL ships.
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Why don't we just fight on the Test Server instead? We can all meet up on mumble afterwards, compliment our war strategies and what not...
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Great idea IMO
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I'm going to pretend this made sense and just direct you to re-read what I wrote. I never suggested it as a permanent or, god willing, lengthy alternative to sovereignty warfare, but as a coordinated campaign cum protest to draw attention to the problems of sov war.
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I live in highsec, I have no problem with this, there's a few groups stirring up shit with the miners and stuff, but a much bigger shit needs to fall on it from a great height.
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Wait, what's the connection between Burn Jita and nerfs to ganking? From what I understand, most changes in that area (buffs to Hulks, crimewatch update) were responses to small gang suicide ganking and whining miners, not to thousands of goons killing everything that wasn't blue or on the list.And even if your premise were true, you can't just say "look at this protest and see what happened" any more than I can say that that other protest in Jita against 70$ monocles is proof of the unilateral success of hi-sec protests in kicking CCP's arse in the right direction. So tell me, what is the possible worse-case scenario of encouraging changes to sov warfare? What about a hi-sec campaign could possibly inspire CCP to work to change sov warfare for the worst? How would they even do that (especially in any way concerning a nullsec invasion of hi-sec)? Hell, how could any changes to sov in our worst nightmares could CCP possibly come up with that would be worse than the status quo?
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Fuck that made me laugh dude :)
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Yes, the sov mechanics need to be changed. Currently, it favors entities with more supercapitals than the opposition. Should the balance be swung towards those with fewer supercapitals and actually make wars more risky and challenging for supercapital-heavy entities?The concept of staged war games between the three main coalitions (HBC, CFC, N3) is fine; however, the effects that it will cause are certainly debatable.1) All of these main entities hold a significant portion of technetium in the game. This is a material used for the production of T2 ships. Will these staged events have an overall effect of increasing the value of technetium, thus also significantly increasing the net value of all of these main entities?2) Will this coordination of large-scale pvp between opposing entities form a sort of camaraderie that will be utilized in the future to oppose new rising entities and prevent them from changing the status quo? (As an example, all Russian alliances banding together under a uniformed banner to reclaim historically Russian-owned territories, such as Drone Regions, and being swept aside by CFC, N3, and HBC in a coordinated effort to prevent future sov grinding while ensuring 'safe' income streams.)3) There will be a lot of energy and enthusiasm at first by general membership of these entities in being participants of a new and untested 'fight club'. What benefits will they see in the long-term that will keep them fighting? While tech-moons and isk for an alliance or coalition as a reward for winning a battle or string of battles may entice the few who 'pay-to-play', you still have those who 'plex-to-play' and aren't as thrilled about a "Frienemies-style" relationship. Also, there are those who actually prefer the traditional sov-grind due to the fact that it forces an engagement. The fact that you sometimes have to grind structures is solely a consequence of choosing when to act upon either wanting to claim systems or defend them.Overall, I disagree that a 'war games' will bring any benefit to anyone except the organizers who have the most to gain and less to lose from organizing such a spectacle. Over the long-term, I do not foresee them as a sustainable venture due to both logistical and moral issues. Over the short-term, they will be successful at generating some large fights and drawing some attention by CCP. One thing to note, I do not expect a major commitment of supercapitals due to the simple fact that they alone significantly augment an entity's position in the status quo. No entity will compromise their position and risk long-term exposure to the risk of losing vast income streams simply due to a critical lack of judgement in a single battle or string of battles.One thing I do known for sure, with the amount of logistics necessary to maintain such an event, even for a short period of time, there will be plenty of haulers, freighters, and jump freighters derping around in highsec, lowsec, and nullsec to kill. In addition, there will be plenty of doorbells needing to be rung and targets of opportunity to be had while you are all out having your 'fake' war.Fortunately, while you all are out playing with each other in your little 'thunderdome', there are still those players with the knowledge, experience, and resources who are more than happy to shake the status quo and show how the same game mechanics that elevated your positions within the game can also be utilized against you.
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wouldnt the people that quit be unhappy? Thus not everyone happy?
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this has basically been agreed on by those in charge over the weekends, whether it pans out we arent 100% yet
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Its crazy what has happened to this game, I like the idea but its a pity that this is what needs to be done.
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Nothing is stopping you, go shoot the monument like all the other dumbasses that thought they were stoppin CCP from sellin $70 monicles (newsflash CCP is still sellin monicles).And while you waste your time doin that, I'll be out in 0.0 shooting spaceships!PS. Don't really need to "draw attention" to Sov, CCP knows by now the "problems of sov war", they jsut haven't gotten around to doing anything about it, yet, because they likely don't have a way to FIX IT, yet!
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I'll try to explain this to you very slowly (you'll just have to read this slowly): for one, it didn't force them to remove monocles, but it put the entire Incarna stationwalking WOD-test crap on the backburner and drove the development paradigm shift from expansions that add underdeveloped new systems that, when the cracks show, are basically ignored as they churn the next feature out (Empyrean Age, Tyrannis, Incarna, etc.) to more multilateral updates that improve on existing things, and the new content they add are something everyone can enjoy (Apocrypha, Inferno, Retribution, etc.). In addition, CCP have repeatedly said that it's player-driven events that have been the catalyst or tipping point on multiple occasions for drawing attention to problems, and determining when and where those problems sit on their priority list. Those "dumbasses" shooting the monument were part of a movement that completely turned CCP's priorities on their heads, and I'm hardly imagining the sov entities just shooting at a floating statue. Though it may be asking a lot of you, you mustn't be afraid to think a bit bigger, you mouthbreathing idiot.
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Actually, I find it hard to believe, since you're a newbee, that you even have a fucking clue about any of this shit.So let me lay this on you dumbass, it wasn't the tards shooting the fucking monument and mouthing off on Eve-O, that spurred CCP, it was the dudes who were un-subbing from the fucking game by the thousands that actually did ANYTHING to spur CCP to change what they were doin!Oh, and the "crap changes" that Narlah was talking about, ie. Goons Ice Interdiction/Hulkaggeddon =buffs to mining barges/exhumers making them harder to gank, Burn Jita = buffs to freighters and no more insurance payouts for gankers. Shall I keep goin? Or you actually gonna get a fucking clue before you get :commissar: newbee!
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not supers though
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Stop changing your bullshit argument. First you said that CCP didn't change a thing, and now you're admitting that they did, but there was never anything that happened in-game that changed CCP's mind about anything (which is demonstrably false). Well guess what, shitbrain? What do you think would happen when carebears start getting popped hand over fist, all supposedly because CCP couldn't be arsed to fix sov war? Think they'd just bend over and take it, like I'm sure you would (and probably are), because I'd bet every fucking cent I have you'd be wrong. You even disprove your own point by citing Hulkageddon: between its numerous iterations and its predecessor Jihadswarm, though neither necessarily had a mission statement to be made, it riled up the playerbase enough that CCP buffed hulks and made other changes, regardless of you or anyone else's feelings about those changes. And the changes to insurance payouts weren't implemented to punish ganking and had nothing whatsoever to do with Burn Jita, but insurance fraud. So sit the fuck down.
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Awh, look at the newbee, tryin so hard to be relevant, and he still doesn't have a fucking clue.The point, since you missed it, each time null dudes make a point to go "shit on hi-sec" has resulted in dev time spent on fixing shit in HI-SEC, and null-sec goes on languishing with shit Sov mechanics, among other things wrong (no industry to speak of, endless structure shoots, etc.).
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England invaded 4/5 countries in the world, so its totaly possible
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It might be a good idea for CFC, HBC and PL. Sov grind is bad, totally boring, been there, done that. But I cannot stop smiling and thinking: "So who's the carebear here?"
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Let the mortal combat begin(c)Shung Tsung

 

(Editor's Note: Shadoo has offered us this post, which was originally made on the TEST forums, regarding the wargames proposal which has been a hot topic around nullsec recently. What do you think?)

In this weeks Shit on Kugu episode we kinda went into the whole "war games" scenario a little on a tangent of what I think a lot of the FCs around different alliance in EVE are experiencing. If you're interested in listening to the podcast which is "Shit on Kugu" -- EP. 26 is now available at: http://shitonkugu.bl...on-kugu-26.html (The SoK talk about "war games" is at minute mark 33, potentially NSFW due to language)

Prelude

This started out as a few dudes throwing around ideas back in December (Vee, Vince, Manny, etc... on shit on kugu). The reason, for this VERY <expletive> and VERY DUMB idea was the realization that EVE is now so polarized that the only war soon left to be fought would be one most of us would not come out of still playing EVE.

When the effort required to fight a 0.0 sov war is estimated in YEARS, I would argue the system is fundamentally broke. I don't blame it all on CCP - I think the reality is that we, the OLD players, have now played this game for 10 years and too many people know how to bore an attacker out of invading you, or how to most effectively crush a noob lead assault. The ladder is too high for new blood to accomplish anything, except a ridiculed attempt at starting a war that ends up being chased out of NPC sov 3 days later. And the bitter OLD VETS know far too well now what is involved fighting a block war, though we try our best to hide it from you.

For example: In June 2012, I posted on the PL DIR forums to ask if everyone was ready to fight the Southern Coalition block war. I believe I said in the thread it would take 6 months to fight this war and that it would be bloody, shitty and so much grind - I wasn't sure who was going to be around after it. We told PL grunts and those of you around in TEST at the time a very different story, but would you have been eager to follow if you knew in June 2012 how much effort the war was going to be? When I estimated the HBC vs. CFC war to the battlebadgers & PL FCs, I said it would need 2-3 years to fight with the usual eb and flow of a large block war. I based that on the BoB war experience backdrop - though I think in reality it would probably be even more effort now, since both sides know how to fight a prolonged block war. Unsurprisingly -- not many of OUR FCs anyway wanted to fight it on the backdrop of last 6 months grind vs. SoCo we had just completed.

I think we all know that this war cannot be stopped, it is coming - but no one wants to be the <expletive> who starts it, except few who've not actually ever ran or been in the FC side of running a large block war. So what do we do while we wait for people to get SO BORED they're prepared to end their EVE "life" fighting a war no one wants to start, which will last longer than most reading this post are willing to commit to this game?

The idea was simple from the burned out bitter vet FCs on the k.com mumble: Lets all agree to just do what we will without planning do ANYWAY everytime there is a big fight in EVE: agree to meet somewhere and shoot each other.

And lets do it at a scale SO BIG, CCP has no choice but to accept there is a problem, and do something about it fast. We've done this before when we took 20+ titans to 49- outpost in a conga line and doomsdayed Viper's carrier. Seleene on our forums, who was the DEV responsible for the design of the current iteration of supercapitals in EVE, confirmed that this artificially organized event, was the catalyst for putting the right focus on the issue at CCP back in the day and allowing the right resources to be committed to change it. So yes, we HAVE done this before and it HAS worked before.

Anyway - this is where we got to so far, which isn't very far because it got rudely interrupted by the two front war on HBC and the Drones War on N3 which PL got involved in as well.

 

The Basics

Basically: every large block in EVE agrees to move to Cloud Ring at the same time. Why Cloud Ring? Because two of the largest blocks participating in it have full JB networks to reach there -- and the 3rd can just move through NPC Syndicate.

Each block gets assigned a staging system in 3 corners of the region - this is controlled by each block getting a holding corporation (Blue, Red, Yellow) in the host alliance for the games (Executive Outcomes). The outpost is set to corporation standings, thus only allowing services to be used by the respective block.

This same mechanic would be used to control "SOV" progress which is a sideline thing we'd like to experiment with at the same time -- the alliance/block level rewards would be tied to this progress if we choose to do it. If you meet the criteria to conquer a system, your holding corporation will be transferred the ownership of the outpost. The premise of this idea is to attempt a goal-based progressive 0.0 war with an alternative mechanic to the current one, because shooting <expletive> stations and outposts is <expletive>.

If you accept the blocks are BORED enough to buy into this, and in December I had 100% of the CFC, 100% of the HBC and 100% of the N3 leadership in principal agreeing to doing this -- you would potentially see between 10,000 - 25,000 characters deployed in a single region in EVE within a titan range or ~10 jumps of each other.

If you agree that most people in this game will PROBABLY SHOOT SPACESHIPS just because they are there, you should in principle agree that the potential for 23/7 fights at 50-1000 scale would be a daily possibility. Especially if we timespan this little pink bubble bath to lets say a week, or two. This is before any kinda bullshit pretend SOV system with rewards.

The Carrot

I think some people need a reason to fight. Something more than just ~good fight~ at stake. So we initially thought about something simple: isk. What if we put together a 1 Trillion ISK price pool fund, then create a relatively easy IT system that tracks all the pilots participating in the war and keeps a tab of isk won based on some sort of formula like 1/5th of the ship value killed is credited to your tab.

At the end of it all - you get transferred the total value of your account. It wouldn't be much, but it'd be something. Would that be enough of a carrot? Maybe, maybe not.

We could on top of it, or instead of it, do something at the alliance level. Like, for example, we gather a pool of lets say 10 technetium moons. Whoever wins the SOV objective -- gets the moons to use as they wish.

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