Odyssey: 30% Reduction in Clone Costs

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I always considered clone costs and upgrades and skill point loss a pretty dumb idea. Here's hoping that it's a thing of the past by the next expansion.
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I posted this in the thread on evo, but i guess it works here too:I have no problem paying 20 mil for my clone when I die in a battleship or T3.But if I die 10 times in a rifter and get podded each time, it's kinda defeating the purpose of the game. The clone cost is currently a detergent to the sandbox of playing the game you want.Maybe the clone cost could be a funtion of your ships cost (to retain the isk sink) OR just a redution to 1/10th, so a 20 mil clone would costs 2 instead.a 30% reduction is still expensive.
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One of the best festures so far ...
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part of me hopes that they get rid of learning implants as the "next step". personally, without a set of +4s in my head it feels like i've left the house without my phone or my watch and it feels wrong (you know that feeling). i know it's entirely my own fault for insisting on having +4s, but if the option wasn't there i'd be far more open to losing more pods.
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Seconded. Clone cost and learning implants just favour carebears. Get rid of everything except hardwirings and officer implants.
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The first rule of Eve is to only fly what you can afford to lose. But the longer you play Eve, the more expensive your clone gets. Your pod being the one thing you are forced to fly.Should your income decline, you can switch to cheaper ships. You can stop plugging in the expensive implants. But your clone cost will keep going up.
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Cybernetics: The Last Learning Skill.Think back to why the learning skills were removed. Think of all the reasons they were a bad idea. Now find me one of those arguments that doesn't apply to cybernetics.The only difference I see is that cybernetics allows non-learning implants. Which means a different solution is required. But the problem is the same.
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Which is why learning implants need to be replaced with drugs you gobble up. They could do so much with that. Short term learning boosters that last a day all the way up to ones that last a month or even longer. Best part is they are perishable and will not sit on some clone as a one time cost that is never risked in combat ever. Added bonus would be restricting the location of these boosters to be produced on POS's in low sec to give that region of space a shot in the arm.So with no clone upgrade costs and players now using learning boosters; the door to PvP is flung wide open and YOU get to decide how involved you want to get.
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(if any) i laughed quite a bit when i read that....even though i think if you have been playing long enough to have 100m+ sp you damn well should be able to afford clones...but regardless its ridiculous when you cant fly a 2m frigate without risking getting a 20m pod blown up. this just shows how much ccp doesnt seem to know crap about eve anymore. any player new or old can figure out that is nonsense in 5 seconds. if players didnt complain for months/years on end this would not have happened for a loooong time
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This is the one thing that puts me off hopping on for 30 mins and trying to PvP, I feel like that 30mins of maybe getting a fight isn't worth the clone jump or the risk of my +5 implants. Instead I end up playing a map of BF3.
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Worse, they keep carebears doing what they do instead of branching out. Think of the new player who has that massive initial skill point hill to climb. They "need" the learning implants and can't afford to lose them. Removal of clone costs and learning implants would be offset by the amount of destruction caused by people thinking "oh a spare mill, I'll just go trash a Rifter". The only downside I can think of is that potential impact of loss is the adrenaline driver in PVP. Less loss, less rush?
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Mentats.
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Would be interresting to replace these clones with others that actually give bonus to something, like learning or that work in synergy with some implant, more or less like Omega implant.
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You are months late to say this.CCP is now more than ever on the move to fix a ton of old gripes with EVE. Just because they do so as carefully as possible doesn't mean they don't do shit. The Tiericide initiative may be one of the most amazing thing that ever happened to the game.
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Dust mercs now grow clones on the planets. My guess is that they will eventually be selling those clones to Eve capsuleers resulting in a player-driven clone market.
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I'm just throwing this out there so go easy on me if a more thorough analysis reveals this to be folly; Make clones a DUST514 produced item. It would provide a source of income (Dust's extra clones in a district already automatically convert to ISK) and help start the process of bridging the two economies. I can't be the first to draw this natural conclusion.Edit: They should be dirt cheap too since they are produced for very little effort and should cost along the lines of PI goods. Say currently a 9m clone costs 9,000. That number could be adjusted to a reasonable passive income for DUST players. If a 50m SP EVE player still balks at a those kind of ISK amounts, then no compromise will satiate them.
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I foresee clones to be moved completely into the player driven market.Clones would be manufactured from PI commodities (Since clones would also be a Dust commodity here is the strategic Dust <-> PI tie in for NullSec alliances once Dust is available in 0.0), giving planets other that those used for POS fuel more value, since I see a whole lot of autotrophs, microorganisms and carbon compounds being used in addition to a lot of water. Probably nanites too.Players could only be resurrected at a station/outpost stocked with clone bodies by manufacturers. If a players home station is not stocked they automatically get revived at an NPC run high sec station. A clone contract would still cost money, but that money would go the the holder of the outpost who in turn has to spend money on the market to keep hist outpost stocked with clones.Clones would also be needed to be shipped to the front lines during a war both for Dust players (who would by then play some kind of role in taking sov) and for capsuleers.PS: Turk was faster than me and said it in fewer words. And his description makes even more sense, as that would give Dust Mercs a commodity other that theri manpower to sell to capsuleers. I'd still love to see them being made from PI materials as that would turn planets into more of a strategic resourdce for them.
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I like it.
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I'd like it if you could pick a clone that has fewer SP than you have, but you are then forced to select a subset of skills that fit within that clone Sp limit.For example, if you have 90m SP worth of all sorts of shit, capital skills, industry, logi ... and you only want to fly a rifter. Then you pick a 10-20m SP clone, and "unapply" your skills that don't match the ship until you get down to the 10-20m SP clone.
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If you're paying 20 mil for a clone, maybe you should be flying something better than a rifter. Just sayin. If ya gots the skillz, why be Mr. Lowest Common Denominator Pilot when you could be flying a ship that better helps your fleet and is a better reflection of your skills.
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Agreed, sounds good. Nerfing skill rate because you are an active player is retarded. Being able to use isk for a small boost in skill rate is good, though, and should be possible.I don't know if I agree with limiting them to lowsec. It feels too much like forcing the player hand. On the other hand, you could do a similar result by having them produced with gases from ladar signatures in lowsec.
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I love this concept. And don't forget it would be illegal to move learning boosters through highsec. We need some proper smuggling mechanic. And there would still be a cost associated with dying as one would loose any active learning booster effect in addition to the ship and the clone.
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Pretty sure clones are going to use the same system Dust clones use (produced on planet) on the long run.
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First off- this is a great change. Nothing wrong with a reduction in costs for clones. Although, and i dont give a shit was CCP says, faucets and sinks are atill out of proper alignment. That being said, clone costs are not a good sink.My biggest issue are the people stillbitching about attribute implants and how they are a roadblock to pvp. They arent. They are an excuse by people who would rather train a tad bit faster by using +4 implants that will run 100+ mil for a full set rather than +3s which cost less than half that. If you want to pvp then give up the +1 in attribute. 20 to 50 mil shouldnt cause you to think oh man, i cant get in a ship and fight. You want to run +5s then you are making the choice. But removing all choice isn't right either.
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oh jesus all of this. brilliant. this is how the boosters work in DUST so perhaps this will happen in a matter of time?
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Because rifters can still be fun, plus your argument only looks at it from a fleet perspective. Plenty of people like to solo or small gang in a variety of ships.
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Agreed. Sometimes I fly throw away ships too. He just made the statement that it doesn't feel so bad when he loses implants in more expensive ships. Big fleet, small fleet. Fuck, everything about PVP is risk and cost trade offs. If you want to always be ready to PVP in any ship, lessen your imant load to something that won't deter you. It's all about choices. Can't bitch that CCP gave you an option and you chose a path then blame CCP for giving you that option to begin with
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Fair enough point but I would much much rather people PVP more than worry about clones. I've personally stopped caring about flying with plus 4's because I bought a stack of them a while back but I feel that this can have an inhibitory effect on casual roaming and it would be interesting if the learning drug idea was introduced.
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I'm thinking it's going to be more of a "build a clone" type of thing. Where you make a clone with a small amount of SP specifically for the ship you're flying. And you build/buy clones based on the amount of SP they hold. Of course you'd have to train all the skills on a main clone or something, but everything you have trained you'd be able to build into a clone.Example: You make a clone that can hold all core skills and a specific frigate skill. The Clone costs you 4mil isk with of resources to make. You make a clone that can hold all Core, Leadership and Command ship skills. The clone costs 60 mil worth of resources to make.Just a rough example but this is the only thing i could think of in regards to changing clone mechanics.I guess if you forget to switch to your built clone, you risk losing SP just like forgetting to upgrade your clone now. Always a risk! Bwah hahahaha
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And where do they get the raw materials from? Podded bodies!So now there's more incentive to pod people!Or maybe they've got an idea that's less sociopathic...
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I would go for across the board hikes in skill book prices if it got rid of clone costs. Now just add a skill that lowers jump clone cooldown.
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I totally agree. I fly with nothing but +3s in and even then I typically just have in a couple rather than a whole set. And everyone is right, expensive implants, whether attribute implants or crystal/snakes/slaves/etc do have a deterring effect. But that's a choice nobody forced us to make. People need to be smarter rather than have their options limited. But why should Eve be any different from the nanny states that most of us in the US and Europe are living in.
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I want to see the removal of attributes too and have everything work from multiples of a solid block of time. Remapping to charisma for a year cos you want to do leadership skills is horrific.
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for the love of EVE, please replace pods/clones with ship crews.please.
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Eh, I'm a pretty low SP dude, so clone costs are more of an annoyance than any sort of real hurdle, but it seems to me that if you have more than 100m SP maybe train up one of your other characters on that account to fly a well skilled rifter or sabre. At that point your main dude is going to be able to do pretty much anything without an issue, so get a second guy for subcap welping.
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We should jus make it a time limited booster which an be bought for AUR and sold on the open market. This would generate extra revenue for CCP to put toward makng the game better. While they're at it, bring back some limited issue items like Quafe Zero. Again, sell for an amount of AUR that would keep the op market price similar to current prices. They could also sell the Gnossis the same way.
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I like Rifters. They're fun. I also like Vigils. Why should I get punished for flying them? The same can be said about Dictors. They are more expensive but also die all the time.
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Less sociopathic? What are you, one of the peace loving ninnies?
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"detergent"???
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I will say that my number 1 reason I do not PVP much is not the ship loss its the fact that my implants are lost so therefore I need to jump to another clone on a stupid time delay to just pvp and avoid loosing an expensive implant clone.IMPLANTS need to be fixed to remove some of the risk aversion with loosing your pod. Making Implants a perma thing you tweak as you get more skill and are always there regardless if you die would be nice, but i don't see may players liking this as they cant get those expensive pod kills... however if you could fit multiple different clones with sets of implants and it gets replaced when you die would really make me more likely to pvp.I would pay more to replace a clone with implants vrs just a blank clone to maintain my SP
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I personly think the main problem with clone cost comes because its almost double the value per higher clone grade... the price becomes "insane" after 93.5mil, 120mil and 150mil... which most bittervets are within or above... it's a price that makes your pod just as expensive as a cruiser/battlecruiser before implants...The 30% reduction is nice, but it's not enough... the lower clone grades didn't need an reduction... it's really only the higher ones that did.
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Good trolling attempt. 7/10.
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in the lore scavenger drones are there right after a battle to grab all the biomass.
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This is really the key. You can't control your clone cost, and your clone must undock regardless of what you fly. The only alternative is to stop training, but what kind of solution is that? Might as well just stop playing. ISK sinks should follow the risk/reward formula. Two guys, both flying Rifters, one with 50M SP, the other with 5M. This is backwards.

On the test server today, a redditor discovered 30% lower clone upgrade costs than usual. Shortly after his find, he started a thread on Reddit. CCP Rise acknowledged that the changes were indeed correct, but was unaware that they were already on the test server. So, with the cat out of the bag, he made the official announcement on the feedback section on the EVE forum.

Basically, for Odyssey we are lowering the cost of clone upgrades across the board by 30%. This is meant as the first increment on a more thorough iteration on the clone system. Our hope is that through this first step we will be able to establish what (if any) effect clone prices have on player behavior. If you have any feedback related to the clone system (especially in terms of how it affects your play-style) we would love to hear from you.

Another interesting bit to notice in the Reddit thread is Rise's responding to a concern about compensating the removal of the ISK sink to somewhere else in the game. Rise responded with, “This was something that was a concern in the past. However, recent skill book price adjustments more than made up for any damage we could do here in terms of ISK sink, so we can do whatever we want!” With no need for the ISK sink from clones anymore, why have any clone costs at all? One of the largest road blocks to clone changes was the removal of the sink. With that no longer an issue, why keep it, even if it has been reduced by 30%?

It seems that CCP has a much grander plan for clones. Rise confirmed that this reduction is the first step towards changing the years-old system into something that holds more compelling gameplay, which is why they opted not to strip it out completely just yet. I can't help but wonder what they have in mind. Player-made clones? Body harvesting? The possibilities are endless.

The very first article I wrote for TMC went into great detail on how the current clone system is bad for the playerbase, and how it does nothing but promote risk-averse gameplay while keeping a vast number of players from participating in PvP. While the mention of removing insurance as a way to offset the loss of an ISK sink was not well thought out, it was more of an example.

Aside my suggested removal of clone costs, there were several other ideas for how to improve clone mechanics. The first was a clone subscription. This subscription would allow players to pay a one-time fee every few months and lose any number of pods during that time without consequence to their clones. Not a bad idea, but I feel like it is just another band-aid to the issue, and will still discourage players. Still, the idea has merit.

The second option some people brought up was the training of alts on the same account to mitigate clone costs. This comes with its own host of problems; now you have to keep up with multiple names, wallets, assets, and retrain core skills all over again. That does not sound like much of a healthy choice to me. While those who have already gone down this road might try hard to convince you it is the best thing ever, just remember the saying: “misery loves company.”

Additionally, there were a few players in this discussion who made the grave mistake in thinking that wealth comes naturally through skill points. While there is evidence that older players can perform some tasks faster - like missioning - the connection between income and character skills quickly flatlines. Even a newbie can pilot a nice frigate within a month if they skill correctly.

While the reduction of clone costs is officially a first step, it is yet another very exciting change coming in the Odyssey expansion. CCP wants your feedback, which you can provide in his thread. Whether you are an old bitter vet whose clone costs 45-times more than a T1 fit Rifter, or a psychotic Interdictor pilot who always seems to be primary, make sure your voice is heard.

I have been exploding internet spaceships since 2005. While I do love me a good large scale fight, I thoroughly enjoy small scale PvP as well.