MWO: The Third-Person View Debate

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I can understand from a point of wanting to see your mech in action, they are bad ass looking but no they should not be able to use it in a combat situation at all.BTW: EVE is 3rd person and we ALL know what a terrible game that is...
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You're quite welcome for that transcription. it probably isn't perfect, but I felt it caught the gist of what Pres. Bullock said in NGNG. Great article!
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I tried the game out after hearing about it from these articles, and the torso/head disparity is why I quit. I could not get my mech to move where I wanted it to for the life of me, and there are way too many games in this "genre" (free to play shooter games) to have a frustrating experience. I'll probably try the game again after they implement a 3rd person camera to try and figure it out.I don't understand the hate. Why is 3rd person such a mind-wrenchingly terrible thing? Would a better option be implementing an optional movement scheme so the legs move in relation to the direction you're facing, or is also the WORST THING EVER?
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I really enjoy the article, and this is coming as someone who definitely spent his first few missions running at walls and not understanding why. I sometimes still do, but usually in the heat of battle.A tutorial mission would ease people in much more than the "tutorial" video currently accessible on site and through the MWO Home screen in-game. It would be fairly simplistic to add in the third person to first person mission suggested into the tutorial scenario that i already sorely needed. Fantastic article.
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Combination of many factors, like being able to see people firing behind you, being able to peek around corners, and a few unbalanced advantages for triggering third person mode.Of course, the solution to this they have figured is to fracture the playerbase into "first person pilots" and "third person pilots", which the game can't currently sustain, for reasons outlined in the article above.
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Third-person view would work if you compensated by making it difficult to aim correctly and by forcing you to switch to 1st-person view when you zoom. That way, 3rd-person view is a way to move more easily but 1st-person players still have a distinct advantage by being able to target more accurately.
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Yeah, the concern I've got is around splitting the player base, rather than the existence of a camera particularly. There just plain aren't the numbers to do that. It's going to be a challenge already when phase two matchmaking hits and premades are segregated from pugs.
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EVE is also a completely different game, so that argument is irrelevant. Also, your first paragraph sounds like it was written by a 12 year old boy who just found out he won't get in trouble for swearing. Not to mention that the first paragraph contained 0 actual points besides saying people are faggots for wanting 3rd person.
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It really doesn't take too many games to figure out that your mech's torso moves separately. I never played mechwarriors before this, yet it only took me 2-3 games to get the basics down, and a few games after that to understand how to use a light mech.Implementing 3rd person is about instant gratification for new users who don't understand that you have to work to learn some things in life, which in this case is a different movement basis than they're used to in other games. Just have people play a few games and get used to it, or implement a tutorial that fully explains the movements, rather than dividing the player base.
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I was a bit worried when it sounded like you embraced full-time 3rd person view. Not because I have a problem with the PoV in MWO so much as that alone doesn't solve the problem (without creating new ones, as you stated later on). Having it in a minority of training exercises, I can handle. However, this seems like it could be solved through UI changes that make it more apparent that the 2 parts able to face different directions. This could then be solved through a screenshot/still presented during loading with some tips and arrows pointing to the relevant part of the UI.I am for tutorials though, and if they flesh that aspect out, they could possibly handle the problem in there. I spectate a lot of people who clearly understand the concept on some level though, but forget to account for it when shit hits the fan (i.e. they start running into more buildings when looking around a lot), so maybe an onscreen indicator would still be useful to some while learning the game.
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So here's an interesting thing - there IS an arrow on your compass strip that show you where your feet are pointing. There's two triangles and one stays in the middle of the strip and one moves when you twist away from your centre axis. Clearly this isn't enough as a) even seasoned players are sometimes unaware of it and b) it tends not to be where you're looking when you're in the middle of a furball.Lots of people do understand the concept of legs vs torso I'm sure, it's just the lack of any in game explanation of ANY of the mechanics is problematic.
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I would like to have the option to view my mech from the outside in battle too. Like a free camera mode, where you don't have the crosshair, but still can move around with the mech, and at the same time move the camera around the mech. Or at least it should be implemented in dead mode. It would be more enjoyable to view the battle, at least for me.
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Geeez I was having some fun....There I got rid of the fun part haha. I don't feel 3rd person should be available in MWO.
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I welcome the change to 3rd person view.I've played past mechwarrior titles almost exclusively in 3rd person view and I have had a difficult time adapting to being forced into 1st person view.Developers in teh past have said that 1st person view isn't more realistic then 3rd person view. Not too sure why people still think it's all hardcore or w/e.
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Just make a damned actual tutorial... Move here... this is torso twist...this is forward... fire weapons while moving.
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I'm against a 3rd person view for serious play and like the idea of matches where it's allowed VS matches where it isn't. Keep everyone on a level playing field per match. The issue I have with forced 1st person is one of visual perception. That is, the map is frikkin tiny, the HUD symbols are frikkin tiny, nothing is partially transparent enough to discern what the 5 or 6 overlapped symbols are on your compass most of the time, and all the map and HUD stuff is so goddamned blurry that when stacked with the tiny I can barely make heads or tails of the melee I'm wading into around the next building before I step into it.While the concept of console displays are traditional we're talking about mechs here... future stuff. I expected a constant, partially transparent, sharply focused and well kearned WOT type customizable overlay right on the monitor window rather than the mechs consoles and windows because if it's really battletech you're supposed to be wearing a damned neurohelmet that should integrate this stuff! The info you want should be in your face, not at a goofy angle on a dashboard. These aren't cars and you don't turn a key to start them up. If there are consoles ( as dictated by the physical layout of the cockpit ) they should be filled with computer banks and not have any displays on them because that's what your helmet is for; they should be flat textured and covered in pinups and post it notes.http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Neur...
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Yeah, the idea of 3rd person vs not 3rd person is not a terrible one in and of itself. The problem is, as I say, that you're splitting up the player base and there plain aren't enough of us for that to be a viable plan.
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If you allow third person, it gives you the ability to see people behind you, see around corners, see over hills (depending on the angle), etc. In other words, a big change in gameplay. For example, more maneuverable mechs won't be able to sneak around behind large mechs and try to stay out of sight while they plink away at close range. The alternative to that is to implement cone-of-vision, but that would also be confusing to new players (why did that mech disappear?) and big code changes (since the server would have to enforce LoS). At the same time, third person probably won't work for longer range due to parallax, so you'd be forced to switch between 1st and 3rd person views frequently. Unless they add some kind of autoaiming or a smart reticle (and further dumb down the game).Basically, it turns the game into more of an action game and less of a mech simulation game, with the idea that they're going to go after more casual players. Which is stupid, Mechwarrior is a long-established brand with lots and lots of potential players that would rather play a good game than a flawed game that is easy to pick up. And those casual players are the ones who are less likely to buy MC (and for that matter suffer through 40+ matches in trial mechs that suck).What they could do a lot more easily is add a different movement mode where your mouse moves the torso, and then your legs try to turn to face the torso, unless you hit sideways strafe keys in which case they attempt to turn 90 degrees and walk that way. This would be more intuitive to some players but offer a little bit less control, without giving a huge tactical advantage.
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I personally disagree but I can see why people want a third person view. I quite like being "inside" my big stompy mech and seeing what I would see if it were real.
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My major complaint with a third-person mode is that, if players weren't segregated, the third-person players would have to have something like World of Tanks' third person mode with "fog of war", which I wasn't particularly fond of. I have to agree that a good solution overall for the game's health would be to teach players how all this arcane shit works. Then we will see less metal babies tenderly caressing Atlases with machineguns and flamers.
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Oh God... terrible idea inbound.Allow 3rd person view on the Trial Mechs only since they're terrible and you're destined to die in a fire piloting them anyway.
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You know, they could do it like the Battletech/Virtual World center used to do it. Default mode slaved the torsos together. Wherever you pointed is where you went, and where you shot. Players could disable this mode, which would of course allow independent movement of both torsos.That might be easier to implement than a 3rd person camera.
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i just think its funny that you said eve is a terrible game on a site that tons of eve players read..
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woosh
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3rd Person view in MWO is the most foolish thing I have ever heard of. Anyone here that has played this, learned to drive these super walking tanks with out it and it should remain as such. When or should I say if MWO adds 3rd person view to PvP that will be the day it gets deleted from my hard drive.
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Eve is a terrible game. Probably why we're stuck playing it.
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because we are terrible people?
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So 3rd Person is only a tool for PGI to pull in even the dumbest of mouthbreathing neckbeards?I would actually like to see my own mech from time to time, but the reasoning why they are implementing this now makes me want to throw up.
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exactly this, it really isnt hard.Celestia: i dont think you really tried, i think you conviced yourself of "ugh whats this, i havent done this before, i cant do it - uninstall"but the game is really worth putting some effort into it!

Right, let's get a couple of things out of the way: yes, I am a goon and I’m going to talk to you about third person view. No, I am not going to tell you that you access it by pressing Alt-F4, like all these people did. We’re done with that, we’ve run it into the ground.

Instead, let’s talk about the actual third person view that Russ Bullock announced in the No Guts No Galaxy podcast this week. It’s come as a bit of a surprise to the community, as PGI had always been very clear that they wanted to keep MWO a first person experience. Before we dive into pros and cons, I’d like to reproduce Russ’ words to provide some context here. Big thanks to Rayezilla for transcribing this from the podcast:

"For me, first person is the way Mechwarrior is meant to be played. I was actually really against 3rd person for a long time. I'm beginning to realize that was a mistake. Originally in closed beta, first person was for the really hardcore fans. The most complex thing for new player is the torso aspect, believe it or not. At E3 or some trade show, a totally new player steps up to the game and moves his mouse, seeing the screen movement he expects that he's moving that way like any other shooter. They don't realize why they are running in place. Of course, what they don't realize is that they're running into a building, and it's just that little aspect of torso which is the number one hardest thing for new users. The only way to truly show people what's happening in the game is 3rd person.

The tanker analogy helps a little bit, but you can tell people they're driving a tank all day long and it doesn't really sink in. Why is world of tanks so damn easy to play? It's ‘cause you're staring at your tank. You can see which way you're driving. The biggest concern I had with 3rd person was I didn't like the peeking around corner thing. But there' s no denying that if we want MWO to achieve the next level of players is that we need 3rd person.

First and foremost, we're totally caucusing what the hardcore player base wants. If you don't want to play 3rd person and you don't want to play 'against' people in third person, we're making that an option. Think of third person like a training camera. If for the first few hours, someone gets to view 3rd person camera angle that teaches them how the mech functions, and then a few hours into the game they pop into first person to experience the more advanced aspects of the game, the mercenary aspects, the CW aspects. Think, 'here's how we train people how to play the game.'"

In summary, PGI views this is a way to get new players to understand the movement mechanics a bit better, and no one has to play using third person or against those who are. Community Warfare will also require you to be in first person view, so at some point a new player needs to bite the bullet and get used to it.

On the positive side this is good news because PGI is considering the needs of new players and how to grow their customer base. Both will be critical to the survival of MWO as a game. I don’t have access to their player numbers, but I’m willing to bet they hit their peak when open beta launched and that almost every long standing Mechwarrior/Battletech fan is already playing. In order to keep this game growing PGI has two options: squeeze more money out of the current customer base or expand the customer base. That they’re looking to the latter is good news for those of us that have already thrown money at them. A third person camera will also be nice once we hit the point of being able to customize our paint jobs. After all, what’s the point in painting your Stalker hot pink with a vertical line down the front of the nose if you can’t look at it and snigger at your own childishness?

However, there are grounds for concern over the possibility of splitting the player base. Again, I don’t have my hands on player numbers, but I strongly doubt that MWO can support two segregated player groups at the moment. Furthermore, if their plan is to not let you use third person for Community Warfare, they could well wind up with a big chunk of casual players who never graduate to the cockpit view and play CW. That's a big problem, because CW is what will keep players in the game for over the long term and spending money long term. As fun as the random battles we have right now are, I don’t think they’re going to hold people’s interest forever. There’s a reason that games like Planetside and World of Tanks have a persistent overworld to fight over, after all.

From the way the MWO community has responded to this announcement that “Maybe possibly we could eventually do something that is like a third-person camera to help people learn to drive mechs”, you’d think that PGI had announced that in order to play you’d have to put your dangly parts into a meat grinder. Many appear to have missed that Russ talked about having the option to choose between two different views, not that everyone would have access to third-person camera in all modes, all the time. The overwhelming response from the people who post on the official MWO forums is that they don’t want the community fragmented, alongside the usual demands for founders pack refunds, a growing tradition when PGI suggests any change someone doesn’t like.

My own view is that what’s really needed here is an offline training mission or two for new players. In fact I’m just going to link directly to this post by my comrade in wings Amechwarrior and agree entirely with his first suggestion:

 

"Allow 3rd person within a single player tutorial mission

Let the 3rd person cam and the tutorial work together to get a new pilot used to moving while torso twisting. But at the end of the "Movement" mission, before they go on to firing they must navigate a simple maze by only 1st person while keeping their torsos aligned to a dummy target.

Let them practice all they want with 3rd/1st person mazes before the "gate" to the next tutorial level. But the end of the movement tutorial must have them moving in 1st person because allowing them to rely on 3rd person sets them up for failure in the real game that's 1st only. Further tutorial segments would not allow 3rd person."

 

Splitting the player base, even with the best of intentions, is a terrible idea. It can be done; Call of Duty does so with its map packs, and can survive by dint of having hundreds of thousands of people playing. But, let’s not delude ourselves here. Battletech is for now, and the immediate (and probably distant) future, a niche game compared to that ultra-slick product emitted from the Activision. Partitioning the playerbase is going to end badly. Showing, not telling, the players how to deal with the differences between this and the shooters they are used to via a decent tutorial mission is the way to go here. Locking them into a “third person camera ghetto”, does nothing to turn these players into paying customers - which ultimately has to be PGI's goal if this game is to continue.

[name_1]
I've been writing words on the internet for years at www.tatp.org, but until I came to themittani.com, no one bothered to read them. I like robots, space and the internet and am therefore perfect for the MWO desk.