Li3 Suffers Moving Trauma

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To be honest i have never even heard of this alliance.
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can we just replace this whole article with kugu adverts?Or will that burn your Li3 alt to badly?
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There really isn't much of a "history" between Li3 and the monkeys other than Multiplex, who were once monkeys themselves. I will not go into the reasons why MPX are not monkeys anymore, because that is water under the bridge. As long as MPX supports Li3 and the CFC as a whole, I don't see any problems with that particular issue.
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I know there is a disclaimer up top, but still this article is just bad. It sounds like you would expect, someone left the alliance, willingly or otherwise, and is now spewing their opinions. Is Li3 unknown? Hell yes, I don't think many would argue that, but thats about all you can take away from this article. Linking the alliance leaders KB stats or linking a corps recruitment ad that requests miners as proof of some giant carebear alliance is pretty weak at best TBH. Every strong alliance, even PVP centered ones, need *some* means to support themselves.Overall, I think this article is far more suited for E24, hope you enjoy your new home in whatever alliance you bounced too, but trying to throw mud at the people you were just buddied up with makes you seem like an angry child.
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Editor's note is incorrect. I left Li3 on my own, was not asked to leave or removed.
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So you expected a strong and well written article about an alliance that is breaking apart just because they are joining CFC on TMC? Really?
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6 pages of kugu sperging compressed into one article.That said I do think he's actually right. Li3 aren't really wanted by anyone in the CFC. It feels like mittens wanted a defection from HBC and this was the low-hanging fruit. If that serves the CFC diplomatically or whatever I'm all for it but everything I've seen of Li3 has just shown up their incompetent leadership and care bear lifestyle.
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I think there's also that SMA took jade in on the basis of giving him a chance to bring his corp and eventually alliance into the CFC and he utterly blew it, then scampered off to the HBC and bad mouthed his former hosts.
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I thought skullchip booted you for trying to get people to pvp, or caps locking or something?
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It was a good play from CFC and Li3 was either dumb enough to be played, too stupid to realize this would go south or did not care because they got bribed.
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If you want to build a PVP alliance Vale is a good place. However; to do it you really need a core PVP presence in the senior leadership that drives that content, without it you'll not build a PVP core. If you look across CFC/HBC/N3 etc it's easy to pick out PVP alliances they tend to go on road trips; fazor for example. I know nowt about Li3 do they have a good proportion of PVP people in the leadership?
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Most moderate sized pvp alliances actually don't need industrialists or ratters at all since the vast majority of production takes place in highsec and the pvp players will either be self-sufficient, or in the case of the CFC/HBC, will have access to ship replacements. You do need logistics people obviously and those guys play a very important role.I'd go so far as to say that pure carebears with no combat skills can actually be a detriment if you wanted to identify as 'elite pvp' (whatever that means), since they tend to be frustrating to deal with and will lose quite a few very expensive ships to roaming gangs and hotdrops. The problem with someone like Jade isn't that he's bad at pvp - it's that he never does it at all. Seriously, even the diplomacy heavy leaders like Mitanni and Montolio have at least some experience at shooting ships.
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Why exactly should we care about a random alliance making ping-pong between two power blocs ?
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Jadecougar was a butthurt manchild who couldn't understand why his idiotic ideas were divisive and why speaking from a high horse and from EN24 instantly set most of the TEST forums against him.It is nothing more complicated than this.
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You realize something like half the writers for TMC are in the HBC, right? Editors also straddle multiple coalitions.
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Rundle has pick on jade on the show about his main toon pvp skill. So that is not full true statement when most people have alt's .and the other stuff they need to do what is best for LI3
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Actually they were randomly acused of theft and so and left.
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Should have kept AIF.
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I dont put a whole lot of stock in member counts on Dotlan. Alliances like FA and RAZOR have like 3000 dudes yet a good fleet showing for them is about 90-120. If Li3 falls to 500, 400, 300 whatever, yet can still put 80 dudes in a fleet they will do well. The ball is in their court essentially to show the world what they can do.
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Because the TRIBE thread on kugu got tired after 12 pages, cue up another whipping boy
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We wish best luck to Hilmar Keller on his personal vendetta against his former alliance, Li3 Federation. Looking at his past and how many corporations/alliances he switched so far, and looking that he was actually being member to Li3 with one of his alts while keeping his mains on other HBC alliances, and looking actually how much time he spends on internet rather than playing game, we hope a time might come and he might find a proper place that he can call home. We forgive him for his rage against us.
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Mr. Skullchip wanted me out of his corp, but when the alliance heard this they pulled me into L3EC. I later left that corp on my own.
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Max Doobie Best Doobie
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My industrial alt doesn't have any kills either.
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AIF has 334 pilots, why?
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I guess you guys are unfamiliar with autocracy.
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The hate is strong with this one.CEOs and XOs got the information before it was announced publicly. owever Montolio decided to write the jabber ping while Jade was still telling him that Li3 would leave the HBC, leaving no time for the Alliance to tell their members.Anyway, loads of unresearched, hateful bullshit. Only very few facts.Will Li3 failcascade? Definitely not. At least not entirely. It might lose most or nearly all of its members, go back to Highsec and reform, but I have no doubt that Li3 will indeed survive this. Just like so many others did before them.
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Was going to say the same thing about PvP on my main. Whenever I get the chance to actually engage with EVE uninterrupted I'm out shooting people's internet spaceships, but Imigo's kb stats wouldn't tell you that.
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That they "Definitely will not fail cascade" is bravado statement. Alliances go down for stuff like this all the time, so it is in the cards. It will be cool if they can pull it together after such a slash in corps and numbers, however their decision making process seem to need some retuning given their previous dealings in the null-coalitions.
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People from Li3 keep saying this, but nobody points out who is PVP main is.All I know is that I never heard Jade's voice on any PVP fleet. Was it coincidence that in a month with dozens of fights and fleets with a handful of different FCs, Jade and I just never happened to be in the same fleet? If he actually PVPs, I'm genuinely surprised since in my few interactions with Jade he seemed totally clueless about how PVP works and delegated the PVP tasks away.
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Beyond the politics bullshit this crisis can be also a chance for them to get their shit together, even a small alliance flying logis can have a big impact on engagements as proved recently by CO2
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Then its probably good they purged all that dead weight that dont x up
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The 22th... at day that will live in inthamy.
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By "they" you mean the HBC, right?
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orly? linky to this supposed admission of bs?
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That or the half that didnt follow couldnt(and good luck or were just to short sighted to see the benefits and butt hurt that they are not consulted on every ALLIANCE level decision.
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Let's be fair here, "should we up and move to the opposite end of the galaxy and join a coalition that's currently hunting us for sport" MIGHT be a decision big enough to warrant at least asking some CEO's for opinions first. The only way you make that call otherwise is if you actually know where your alliance stands, and in this case either Jade didn't know, or he did know and had no problem shedding half of his alliance. Neither of those are terribly favorable.
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"if Jadecougar's strengths lie in diplomacy, planning and logistics, why does he so badly want to be the leader of a PvP alliance?"I want to answer this question for you, because I think it is a big misconception to think you'd need to be a major PvPer to lead an alliance regardless of its focus. A leader has to lead, to delegate and focus on keeping the alliance running smoothly. Its actually a big merit to have a diplomat, planer, logistic-guy at the top instead of an FC! Especially in a PvP Alliance. That is where delegation comes in, having people in the respective fields to lend their expertise. In my experience PvP-focussed leaders are prone to underestimating the diplomatic or administrative tasks and are actually less suited for leading an alliance.That said it is strange he doesn't PvP much but that point does not give any indication about his leadership skills.
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Li3 kill boards are solid red. Yet their still singing the same tune that they didn't loose most of their PVP'ers. OK, you all may be suffering from delusions, but the rest of eve can read a kill board. You made a mistake, admit it and people will most likey leave you alone.
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They are still in the middle of a move you scrub!
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I'm trying REALLY hard to find the solid red you're talking about.Did Li3 have a shitload of losses? Yes.But then again, they're in the middle of a move.Plus the recent days don't look red at all, quite the contrary.
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good job posting that 10 times retard. enjoy the ban.
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Yeah I think the last time I logged in on Powers to pvp was to jam some guy with a blackbird and get instapopped by a mach. I do all my pvp on alts, because when I log in, I'm murdered with random convos about guys who got scammed so they need to talk to a diplomat.
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Meat-shield. They have the eastern half of Vale and that isn't exactly the greatest space for anything really.
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This is a stupid article. Most of the people who left were tired of aggressors camping Li3 pockets when either no Li3 members would bother mounting a counter offensive or that it would take 40 minutes to put a fleet together (which is rare). Hurtlocker didn't even join until the last few moments, when Li3 was already breathing it's last. What did they contribute? Dick. JadeCougar doesn't pvp on that character, smart guy. The person who wrote this doesn't know what he's talking about.

(Editor's Note: This contributor was recently a member of Li3 Federation but left, thus having an insider's view of the alliance - yet also a degree of bias. Read with caution!

Jadecougar's announcement on Monday of the Li3 Federation leaving the HBC to join the CFC has caused considerable unrest in the Li3 Federation. Earlier this month, the alliance peaked at over 1200 members across over 30 corporations. As of the 22th, Li3 is down to 15 corporations and ~650 members. Reportedly, Jadecougar made the decision on behalf of his alliance without first consulting any Li3 CEOs or other members.

Why? Li3 Federation is not the first alliance to move from one coalition to another. They were not beaten into submission by another entity or hellcamped into a staging system for days. Their leading corporations were not poached by a larger alliance until all that remained was a shell. They were not subject to a massive theft, departing leadership, or any of the other calamities that can and do befall alliances on a regular basis. So why does Li3 appear to be in the clutches of a failure cascade?

Jadecougar, Man of Mystery

Just to clear the air: I like Jadecougar. Generally, he's a nice guy to talk to. He's patient, he takes criticism well, and he isn't above admitting he's wrong. During my stint in Li3, I gathered that his physical role (rather than moral role) in the alliance was as a logistics guy, setting up POSes and sov structures, which is a thankless task normally delegated away. But beyond that, he's the leader, the ultimate decision-maker, responsible for the direction of his entire alliance.

It's in this latter role, in my opinion, that he falters. Jadecougar announced last month that Li3 would be deploying with THORN to Providence. He arranged all the necessary odds and ends: what ships to take, who to contract them to, where to stage capitals, a timeline for full deployment, and standard fittings for black ops gangs. The deployment had goals and well-defined methods for achieving them. With Lucian James, Li3 could also get some decent field experience and strengthen ties with their neighbors.

The deployment was abruptly cancelled within days when Black Legion deployed south and reinforced two Li3 POSes. Instead of delaying the deployment, or even better, letting the POSes burn and writing it off as a cost of deploying, Jadecougar ordered everybody back home and made one of his notable speeches proclaiming that Li3 was a PvP alliance and would prove themselves this time. He scheduled an all-hands-on-dick CTA for the reinforcement timer and assigned an FC. Black Legion didn't show up to the timer. The deployment was still cancelled.

He is frequently heard saying "Li3 Federation is a PvP alliance" (Jan 12 meeting / February forum post). Interestingly, Jadecougar does not PvP. I don't mean that he doesn't FC, or doesn't solo, or doesn't regularly fly with fleets. He doesn't PvP, full stop. According to Eve-Kill, Jadecougar has several losses spanning the years, but only one kill - and that's on a structure. My question is this: if Jadecougar's strengths lie in diplomacy, planning and logistics, why does he so badly want to be the leader of a PvP alliance? Put another way, would Li3 be losing its ability to PvP if Jadecougar quit EVE tomorrow?

A Pack of Bears?

Perhaps as a result of Jadecougar fostering a culture that appreciates the non-PvP aspects of EVE, Li3 does not have a large number of active PvP-focused players and even fewer FCs. This led to several poor attempts to drive up participation numbers, including an "FC Program" to pay people who FCed regular fleets. But the program was micromanaged too intensely, and FCs were given arbitrary tasks to complete in order to receive SRP (such as collecting 'pins' and 'certs'). Prospective and active FCs protested. Although the leadership relented somewhat, it was at this point I realized the powers-that-be had no idea how to enable Li3 to evolve into a formidable PvP entity, and they were unwilling to listen to those who did.

The recent departure of four corporations, among them the competent small-gang PvP corp Hurt Locker, was not voluntary. Jadecougar removed them without warning or time to move assets. Members of these corps had expressed dissent when news of Li3 leaving came to light. Rather than respecting their perspectives, Jadecougar decided to give them the hard way out. Corporations that have coexisted quietly and asked for little, like Serene Vendetta, whose recruitment ad on EVE-O proclaims "Looking for Null sec miners!", are staying, but most of the FCs in Li3—Crozo Yotosala, Nightjester and Smog890 especially—are already gone.

Think of the Children

The impact of Li3's departure from the HBC has been seen and felt by many. Before this week, Li3 went relatively unnoticed outside of the HBC. They lacked a public presence or an area of operation outside of Querious/Delve (with the exception of Multiplex Gaming's cloaky harassment of SMA) with which to establish themselves in the greater community. Unlike Raiden, THORN or InitDOT, who have deployed to hotspots beyond their sovereignty, Li3 has stayed in Querious, maintaining a low profile. 

Now, with the departure of half of the membership, Li3 is in the crucible. How will they mesh with the CFC given their history with SMA, controversial leadership, and shrinking membership? Only time will tell.

The blackest member of Kugutsumen.com.