(Editor's Note: Obviously the ongoing drama between FA, TEST, and GSF puts this website in a laughably awkward position. Five of our staff are TEST, including one senior editor. We have aimed to present TEST, FA and GSF agitprop about the situation openly for all to read. When alliances go to war there are many casualties, the truth first among them, and you as a reader should choose to read everything with a wary, skeptical eye.)
The Madness of Montolio
This is an extraordinarily awkward update to write, because I'm about to burn a bridge. Actually, let's be realistic - this bridge set itself on fire many months ago, and it's only now that I've given up trying to pretend that we have any kind of relationship with Montolio other than his seething, passive-aggressive hostility towards GSF and the CFC. As you know, things have been batshit with TEST the past few days, ever since they openly announced a desire to kill off our neighbor in Fade, Fatal Ascension, while under the protection of positive standings.
The literal sum of the drama is this: Bring Stabity, TEST's diplo to the CFC, announces that Montolio plans to try to instigate FA into attacking TEST so that TEST can kill off FA while still blue to the CFC. This is problematic. However, we have tried to err on the side of gentleness when it comes to Montolio's antics, and so we just removed the HBC from GFAllies, our shared jabber channel for allied leadership. As responses to "we are planning on killing your neighbor and ally who you share a border with" go, this seems pretty tame. Given that Montolio's spat with FA had already queered the dynamic of the channel to where our allies didn't feel comfortable talking in there, this was probably going to be necessary even if the "We're trying to kill FA under your nose, lololol" stuff from Monty hadn't come out so directly.
Does this seem like a petty drama to you? It does to me, as well. And yet we are on the verge of a massive all-nullsec bloc war because of this: the passive-aggressive behavior of one alliance leader, culminating in an explosion of triviality.
After being removed from the GFAllies channel due to his threats against FA, Montolio lost his shit. Where we made no public announcement of these changes, Montolio posted a sticky thread on the TEST forums and broadcast to his entire alliance about what had transpired; he also removed every CFC jabber account from TEST's servers. Since this took place, Monty has issued an increasingly erratic series of jabber broadcasts, mostly relating to a bunch of people eager to kill us joining forces with him:
Expect to see some N3, NeoCurse, and potentially Solar Fleet people on jabber in coming weeks.
Please do not copy any fleet broadcasts into a public room.
Progodlegend and Gorga of S2N are already on jabber who else is coming?
Vince Draken: I will send LadyScarlet
(We note that Solar and N3 are at war with one another in Cache, and these all-broadcasts on TEST jabber from Montolio are clearly intended to spook or intimidate the CFC, or boost Monty's confidence, or something.)
Tonight we've seen a bunch of Kugu posting by Montolio, and instead of it being about FA, he has apparently decided to vent his spleen about how awful Goonswarm was for daring to help out in Delve during the SoCo campaign:
With regards to Goonswarm insisting on owning a few 'defensive systems' in Delve & Querious - Goonswarm has a huge trust issue. The monolithic approach to the entire coalition alienates anyone that wants to be independent. Check each CFC region, you are likely going to find at least one Goonswarm staging area. It took us over a year to get PNQY in Fountain, which they literally never used. One of the big reasons that Goonswarm can attempt to take credit for campaigns is because they refuse to integrate allies within campaign command or fleet command positions. Goon skymarshals, Goon FCs.
It works, but it sucks sometimes. Goonswarm aid always comes with preconditions.
There are more similar posts; these came after a missive yesterday called "FA Shot First" written by Montolio, blaming FA for starting all of this - some kind of spat with BDEAL, an alliance you have all no doubt forgotten, over a year ago, a controversy that no one has talked about at all until Montolio needed to find an excuse for his extreme behavior. His motive is transparent; in response to being separated from GFAllies for announcing an intention to kill FA, Montolio kneejerked and kicked the CFC off his jabber, wrote a screed about how it was all FA's fault anyway due to forgotten year+ old drama, and is now tag-teaming on Kugu with his trusty second-in-command Rob3r about how this is somehow all back to GSF being awful. We've had to deal with years of this kind of passive-aggressive crap from Monty, and things have seemingly reached a point of no return.
What In The Everliving Fuck Is Going On?
Montolio could be an evil space mastermind and this is all part of his grand plan to bring about our downfall. More likely, he could be erratic by nature and spoiled by TEST's position in nullsec politics, leading to behavior like a tantrum-prone child. Here are some possibilities:
He could be malicious: attempting to kill one of our strongest allies under our noses, while surrounding himself with allies which are vehemently hostile towards GSF, such as Raiden (who he gave space to in Querious) and 'N3', the new home of Nulli Secunda and Northern Coalitiondot, both of whom starred in recent Eve Online dramas the [i]denouement[/i] of which involved ignominious retreat for the anti-CFC forces, setting up a classic divide, surround and conquer strategy re: us. However, this requires a fair degree of long-range planning on Monty's part, and I think this theory is probably just me being exceptionally paranoid. Let us be charitable, for a moment.
He could be bonkers: his reactions to events have been completely outsized, overreactions and escalations on a grand scale. His behavior has been unpredictable and erratic, and in fact he is well known for this. While "dude is fucking nuts, who knows" is kind of a cop-out as explanations go, it's a pretty solid contender, considering how often his goals and narratives (FA shot first! No wait, Goonswarm is at fault! etc) shift.
He could be spoiled: We helped Montolio take Fountain, and with PL helped take Delve, Querious and Period Basis; when we went home after one of his tantrums, PL helped prosecute the war against the SoCo to its final conclusion. When Montolio wanted tech moons, we gave him our own. When Montolio began his protracted slapfight with Fatal Ascension, we did little more than say 'play nice now' and turned a blind eye. When Montolio accused us of trying to use our jump bridge systems in Fountain of being ~secret staging areas to destroy TEST~ (PNQY, J5A) we gave them to him; when he decided that he didn't want us to help defend Delve from the W-4 constellation, we handed over every system in the region to him and shrugged it off.
In almost every situation I can think of, the strategy of 'escalate and throw a tantrum' has worked for Montolio when he gets into a conflict; he does not appear to know how to deescalate a situation or calm down, and as long as PL or the CFC was there to back him up, this kind of strategy worked a charm against a number of enemies - until he tried the same on a CFC member.
To my knowledge, "No, you can't hang out in GFAllies while plotting to kill off FA, sorry" is the first time we have said "no" to Montolio, and he has completely flipped shit about it - like a spoiled six year old child punching and kicking because he couldn't get a fourth lollipop today. Perhaps this is a monster of our own creation, by being so accommodating over the years; regardless, it is clear that reason, negotiation, and reconciliation are not options, as everything so far has only accelerated his penchant for psychodrama and petty lashing-out.
What About TEST?
We like TEST. We helped bring them safely into a nullsec that tried to kill us, in the same place; while Reddit and SA might have their spats, as line members go we are fairly similar when compared with the rest of Eve who have no 'mother forum' to call home. We have no quarrel with the line members of TEST. We get along peachy with folks like Durrhurrdurr and Walter Stine, and my best friend in Madison is the CEO of a corp in TEST. Half of my silly website is staffed by loyal TEST members. That makes this situation tremendously awkward: our problems with TEST pretty much just come down to "Montolio is a passive aggressive child", and the guy seems intent on driving us all into some kind of foreverwar with Every Alliance We Beat The Shit Out Of In The Last Four Years as his darling ~friends and allies~.
Right now Montolio seems to think - or is claiming to anyone who will listen - that GSF is getting ready to invade TEST. We are not, and that would be retarded for a whole host of reasons - not only do we not need the space, it's a coinflip if we could even win, and most importantly we like TEST's membership. In reaction to this nonexistent invasion, Montolio seems to be running around Eve rallying forces against us while we are still nominally allies - all for our terrible sin of quietly separating him from FA, who he plotted to destroy, in a jabber channel. It is difficult to get past how laughably petty the instigating event of all of this drama is.
TEST is a member of OTEC, so even if Montolio drinks more Kool-aid and resets us we will not be attacking his tech moons (the techs which we gifted to TEST) unless he launches an actual attack on us.
It's clear that we basically cannot deal with Montolio on any level, and will conduct all our TEST diplomacy (what little left there is to do) via junior diplos, and leave him to his hobbies of concocting obscure resentments, being bitter as hell about GSF, and plotting our doom. TEST has not been removed from our jabber or our forums, and we will keep them blue and hope that this fit of madness passes, and/or someone will give the screaming child a lollipop already before our eardrums rupture.
I Am Offended About TEST/FA/Delve Sov/BDEAL
You're going to see an awful lot of posting and sperging and narratives thrown around in the next few days as Montolio talks himself into resetting us and going to war for kicking him out of a jabber channel after he was caught plotting to kill off our neighbors. BDEAL drama from a year ago. Goonswarm said this/that about Sov this one time in Fountain or Delve and was an evil parent. FA/Zagdul did this or that and is a jerk/not a jerk. For example, Delve was Goonswarm putting its foot on Montolio's neck, rather than responding to a direct request for aid.
What actually happened in Delve? I'll post some logs here, because this seems to be the centerpiece of the upcoming 'evil goons' narrative Monty is pushing on Kugu. On June 24th, Monty asks us in no uncertain terms for help - not to mention adding that everything is perfectly cool with FA (remember 'FA Shot First'?)
First, Montolio comes to Courthouse on June 24th, asking for aid.
(23:55:31) courthouse: based on what I've seen today you've been talking to just about everyone trying to get people to dogpile to delve because soco put up 700 people for an sbu shoot, right?
(23:56:33) montolio: More or less, yes
(23:56:50) montolio: The consequences for failure before today was that we just went back to Fountain
(23:56:52) courthouse: I haven't seen any battle reports or really followed the kugu thread or anything, but I assume shit's pretty much gotten real?
(23:57:05) montolio: The consequence for failure now will be a reinvigorated new bloc that is hostile to us
(23:57:16) courthouse: have they come out and stated that their intent is to pressure fountain?
(23:57:29) montolio: They are moving proxy elements into Fountain
(23:57:36) montolio: and they are all dogpiling into Delve
(23:58:14) montolio: We are very concerned that the enemies will form into something that is much more threatening then we anticipated
(23:58:39) courthouse: okay, then basically shit's real, so if there's any advice I can give it'd be to let the people who are good at their jobs do them. Unfortunately that may mean that we take more operational control than you guys had stated you were comfortable with.
(23:59:03) courthouse: because if the alternative to winning is that fountain is threatened, egos be damned it's time to win.
(23:59:19) montolio: You can have total operational control
(23:59:20) courthouse: that's not to say that test leadership doesn't have a place
(23:59:23) montolio: Or Pandemic Legion can have it
(23:59:28) montolio: Ego is out of this now
(23:59:35) montolio: What we do now has consequences for more then TEST
(23:59:45) courthouse: yeah, I'm just CFC coalition management and diplomacy, not so much the skymarshal.
(23:59:56) courthouse: so this is just advice and isn't binding
(6/25/2012 00:00:06) montolio: We are willing to turn over 100% of it if thats what we need to do to win this
(00:16:00) courthouse: what's the status of the relationship between test and the groups you guys 'for fun' reset a month or two ago/
(00:16:08) courthouse: I'm specifically worried about FA
(00:16:19) courthouse: because there were a lot of unkind words passed between both groups
(00:16:22) montolio: Well RAZOR is already here
(00:16:33) montolio: and Fatal Ascension is on the way already
(00:16:42) montolio: They are either in Syndicate or Aridia at the moment
(00:16:50) montolio: The FA thing has evolved into more of a playful competition
(00:17:07) courthouse: FA just finished syndicate intending to go to aridia next
(00:17:30) courthouse: I was on their TS a half hour ago
(00:17:54) montolio: I have no serious animosity towards Zagdul anymore
(00:18:00) montolio: Fighting is great for getting that out of the system
(00:18:13) courthouse: okay. probably a good thing to let him know if you haven't already
(00:18:25) courthouse: if he's an asshole about it let me know and I'll take him back behind the barn
(00:18:42) courthouse: but that was something that I was worried might turn into a thing
(00:18:44) montolio: We've been talking, he was the first CFC to offer help
(00:20:32) courthouse: okay good, that means it won't be a thing
I'm in Alaska at the time; the next day I pop on for some serious business planning in an allied jabber, and everything is smiles with Monty:
the_mittani: anyway, I'm planning[b]
the_mittani: in regard to our most recent diplomatic records (from last
night) I'm going to avoid a Y-2 scenario by carving out a small path of space for GSF
between NPC Delve and Catch, the W-4 to 49- corridor
the_mittani: we will likely stage in NPC delve or borrow J-L until W-4 is
pacified and try to take 49- as rapidly as possible
the_mittani: that is the 'neck' of those two regions and with our boot on it, it
limits the hostile options substantially
the_mittani: from there we can bridge direct onto C3N, too[/b]
Montolio [.-A-.]: King of the North
Montolio [.-A-.]: Herculetz Lannister will not stand
Montolio [.-A-.]: Is it king of or king in?
the_mittani: beyond that I don't give a shit about the territory, if we're
making a GoT analogy there's a Freys thing going on[b]
the_mittani: That space is the 'trident' of Delve/Q, and there's no valuable
moons anyway, so the rest of the spoils can be divvied out. but I'm sick of the backand-
forth of conquering/not conquering this region[/b]
[b] rob3r: Agreed, Test position is we want to murder some fucking publords,
and we are just glad we were able to kick off what is shaping up to be the next Great
[b] the_mittani: delve 1/2 began from W-4, not seeing a reason to change a
the_mittani: alrighty, that was easy
[b] Montolio [.-A-.]: We are very appreciative of the support[/b]
the_mittani: we might need you to have over k-6k which is sovless in order
for us to drop a staging gallente egg there but I'm not yet set on a stager for us
the_mittani: we're working on it
the_mittani: not sovless, stationless
[b] Montolio [.-A-.]: We will hand over anything you need[/b][/spoiler]
By mid-July we're in conspiracy land; after winning, Montolio complains about us not grinding Period Basis, which had no resistance, like we did Delve and Querious. There's a bunch of stuff here about how we're horrible people because Monty doesn't want to handle an undefended station shot op, or something. I really don't get it, but boy howdy is he mad.
(1:49:57 PM) sionkumitomo: hello
(1:50:03 PM) montolio: hi
(1:50:39 PM) sionkumitomo: so what's up?
(1:51:00 PM) sionkumitomo: I'm yelling at our dudes for causing problems, but yeah. I don't really know what's going on either
(1:56:40 PM) sionkumitomo: would you like some insight into why theadj is upset?
(1:56:55 PM) montolio: sure, because I have no fucking understanding of it
(1:58:43 PM) sionkumitomo: he's put in a lot of work to help out down south. work he was by no means obligated to do. I suspect he feels like he's being shat on for not doing enough work.
(1:58:59 PM) sionkumitomo: when yeah, he's done a lot.
(1:59:05 PM) montolio: We are doing a sov swapped that was agreed on by both sides
(1:59:11 PM) montolio: and you guys want to do the bear minimum on this end of it
(1:59:19 PM) montolio: bare
(1:59:31 PM) montolio: I don't understand it mostly because its god damn cap work
(1:59:36 PM) montolio: The one thing you should never do fragmented
(1:59:39 PM) montolio: and its just cynos
(1:59:44 PM) montolio: its as low effort as it gets
(2:00:50 PM) sionkumitomo: but it isn't particularly mission critical at this point either. I reckon our dudes are just a bit worn out from all this and are looking for ways to lessen their workload.
(2:01:07 PM) sionkumitomo: none of which implies a soco level of fragmentation I don't think.
(2:01:24 PM) montolio: We've been doing this for months
(2:01:50 PM) montolio: The entire region your getting NOL is so that GSF will feel invested in the region
(2:01:54 PM) montolio: entire reason
(2:02:38 PM) sionkumitomo: perhaps, but that's more symbolic than practical when it comes down to it.
(2:02:56 PM) sionkumitomo: goon are I'm sure looking forward to ratting in delve though
(2:03:00 PM) sionkumitomo: *goons
(2:04:10 PM) montolio: We fight 50% of the war, CFC comes down GSF claims victory and stands up as backbone of the entire thing and then people don't want to do the grunt work at the end
(2:04:16 PM) montolio: CFC is going home this weekened
(2:04:17 PM) montolio: weekend
(2:04:20 PM) montolio: Period Basis isn't done
(2:04:48 PM) montolio: You can perhaps understand why we are upset
(2:04:54 PM) montolio: or confused, or whatever you want to classify it as
(2:05:41 PM) sionkumitomo: no, I really can't. as you said before, this isn't about egos. this was about winning. we, collectively, won.
(2:06:02 PM) montolio: You guys came for the 'win' but not the 'finish'
(2:06:13 PM) sionkumitomo: I don't realistically think you need the CFC to finish off PB anyway do you?
(2:06:38 PM) montolio: Need? No, but it really shoots the entire concept of a friendly collective of guys that like each other
(2:06:51 PM) montolio: Especially when we are giving GSF ratting rights to the region that we conquered before you even showed up
(2:07:32 PM) montolio: We needed you to win this war, no illusions on that
(2:07:33 PM) sionkumitomo: the 'finish' bit is a hard sell I think to people who don't feel like their help is wanted or appreciated. as you said, we can "just head back to VFK and collect those technetium deposits" while you handle it.
(2:07:38 PM) montolio: But you guys want sov you want infastructure down here
(2:07:41 PM) montolio: bridges and shit
(2:07:52 PM) montolio: It feels really unfair for you to show up for the climax only and then leave
(2:08:34 PM) montolio: If you just came down, hi5s all around, some battles and then rode bikes back north nobody would be this confused
(2:08:41 PM) montolio: But you guys want to be INVESTED in this
(2:08:45 PM) montolio: You have 49- and NOL
(2:08:52 PM) montolio: You took 49- specifically to invade Catch
(2:08:54 PM) montolio: When you aren't doing
(2:08:58 PM) montolio: which you aren't doing
(2:09:40 PM) sionkumitomo: to the best of my understanding, you offered us whatever we needed. which we took you up on. which was then renegotiated at your behest. ex post facto of that, I don't understand the anger about us wanting the things you said we could have, and are in any case no longer getting.
(2:10:19 PM) montolio: I said you guys could have whatever you needed to win this war
(2:10:29 PM) montolio: The war was one as soon as you came down here
(2:10:59 PM) montolio: The majority of my subcaps are out on a fucking boat fleet right now
(2:11:06 PM) montolio: So my caps are grinding without sub or coalition support
(2:11:42 PM) montolio: Whats the point of NOL and 49- when you guys don't even have the energy to help us swap a station?
(2:12:28 PM) sionkumitomo: honestly, I don't understand why we'd want them either if we're not running bridges to them. maybe nol I guess, but not 49-
(2:12:52 PM) montolio: Right, and we are just going to end up with a J5A/PNQY situation again
(2:12:57 PM) montolio: Bridges out of fuel constantly
(2:13:01 PM) montolio: because no goons give a shit to fuel them
(2:13:29 PM) sionkumitomo: as we're not running any bridges, that strikes me as unlikely
(2:13:40 PM) montolio: Joe asked us for bridging systems today
(2:13:48 PM) montolio: and linked a map that wouldn't even work
(2:13:49 PM) montolio: heh
(2:13:56 PM) sionkumitomo: he was unaware of the changes made
(2:14:55 PM) montolio: I'm just really confused by this entire campaign
(2:15:08 PM) sionkumitomo: how do you mean?
(2:15:14 PM) montolio: This is the first time we asked you guys for help with a TEST campaign and its been drama and frustration from the start
(2:16:26 PM) sionkumitomo: true. for what should be entirely obvious reasons though.
(2:16:57 PM) montolio: Its because you guys weren't in charge of it all from the start
(2:17:07 PM) sionkumitomo: no.
(2:17:13 PM) montolio: then what was it
(2:17:17 PM) sionkumitomo: are you familiar with the concept of a self fulfilling prophecy?
(2:17:32 PM) montolio: I am yes
(2:18:25 PM) sionkumitomo: that's pretty much it.
(2:18:52 PM) sionkumitomo: for example, the pnqy/j5a thing?
(2:19:07 PM) montolio: go on
(2:19:26 PM) sionkumitomo: sinister goon plot, key high way for the coalition, pick one.
(2:19:39 PM) montolio: key high that was never fueled
(2:19:43 PM) montolio: key highway that TEST could have run
(2:19:48 PM) montolio: But goons didn't trust us enough
(2:20:08 PM) montolio: I was told by Mittens it was there because nobody thought we were stable and you guys wanted a stronghold to retake the region if we collapsed
(2:20:14 PM) sionkumitomo: and indeed do now. it isn't a matter of trust though, and therein you're proving my point about self fulfilling prophecies.
(2:20:27 PM) montolio: If its not about trust, then what is it about
(2:20:45 PM) sionkumitomo: practicality
(2:20:57 PM) sionkumitomo: the same reason we hold an embassy system in tenal
(2:21:07 PM) montolio: TEST maintained the fountain bridge network with zero issues
(2:21:07 PM) sionkumitomo: for incidentally, the same reasons.
(2:21:18 PM) montolio: The GSF practice of leaving embassies around makes people feel like pets
(2:21:40 PM) montolio: We are culturally extremely similiar
(2:21:46 PM) montolio: but your external practices alienate my members constantly
(2:21:47 PM) sionkumitomo: surprisingly no. with one striking exception anyway.
(2:21:55 PM) montolio: and I have to actively manage that aspect of our relationship
(2:22:35 PM) montolio: seriously, I want to be super cool BFFS
(2:22:41 PM) montolio: But people make that so god damn hard
(2:22:49 PM) sionkumitomo: that's a matter of perception though, and you can either paint it internally as "hey we're buds" or "the goons are keeping us down."
(2:23:01 PM) montolio: nobody has to paint it
(2:23:05 PM) montolio: people make their own observations
(2:23:09 PM) sionkumitomo: by mittani saying things like TEST is family during the sotg?
(2:23:19 PM) montolio: A month from now the 20 TEST caps on this fleet right now are going to remember this night
(2:23:33 PM) montolio: They are going to remember this as the night that goons were too good to help us grind five stations
(2:23:49 PM) montolio: That kind of shit isn't erased by some casual SOTG mentions
(2:24:22 PM) sionkumitomo: whereas some of our dudes are going to remember this night as the time the leader of test made snarky comments to them while fighting for them.
(2:24:28 PM) sionkumitomo: this isn't a one way street.
(2:24:38 PM) montolio: I made it after you guys decided to us
(2:25:20 PM) sionkumitomo: not by my logs.
(2:25:39 PM) montolio: (11:46:04 PM) ninablaze: montolio: I don't think so, just flipping NOL real quick
(11:46:08 PM) montolio: from what I understand GSF is only doing NOL and then riding into the sunset
(11:46:40 PM) ninablaze: lol, you really giving us shit right now montolio?
(11:47:17 PM) montolio: is that supposed to imply I should be grateful you aren't assisting?
(2:25:39 PM) sionkumitomo: theadj was provoked. but that's neither here nor there.
(2:26:04 PM) montolio: after that your two dudes proceeded to tell me they were busy playing other games
(2:26:15 PM) montolio: and that those other games are more important then our caps once GSF has what it wants
(2:26:37 PM) montolio: (11:49:59 PM) ninablaze: I am personally enjoying Mount and Blade: Warband - napoleonic wars, am0k. has a rag tag group of drummer boys fighting the good fight
(11:50:17 PM) theadj: im trying to grind out an XL400 right now, I really want to try a maxed out speed atlas
(2:26:53 PM) montolio: XL400 - more important then our allies ~
(2:26:57 PM) sionkumitomo: and there's your narrative spin again which is exactly what I'm trying to communicate here.
(2:27:14 PM) montolio: I'm not spinning shit, im posting what was said
(2:27:27 PM) montolio: im genuinely fucking upset
(2:27:37 PM) montolio: I was just partying with GSF directors three days ago
(2:27:49 PM) montolio: I hugged mittens on Friday
(2:27:53 PM) sionkumitomo: okay, then how about another narrative? one wherein those guys are weary from fighting, want to take a break, and such? not particularly sinister, no agendas.
(2:27:56 PM) montolio: and I can't get you guys to help with a station
(2:28:04 PM) montolio: Everyone is weary!
(2:28:24 PM) sionkumitomo: so why not cut them a break on a non-critical station transfer?
(2:28:28 PM) montolio: We just punched another coalition in the teeth and embarassed them so completely that they are blaming each other
(2:28:48 PM) montolio: Because it means that I will have 25 supers on 5 stations over the next few hours
(2:28:50 PM) montolio: with no support
(2:28:55 PM) montolio: Which is the dumbest fucking thing
(2:29:26 PM) montolio: and if any of our enemies are smart they will bring their entire super fleet onto the field, wipe us and declare victory
(2:29:36 PM) montolio: and the rest of the CFC will through their hands up and go "WHY WAS TEST DOING THIS ALONE"
(2:29:38 PM) sionkumitomo: hrm. well, that I'm not sure of. did you ask dbrb about his support fleet or whatever? I'm not honestly up on what fleets are up and about at the moment.
(2:30:04 PM) montolio: what we are doing right now is exactly the kind of thing you don't do with caps
(2:30:12 PM) montolio: and you guys have been playing for years and don't see that
(2:31:19 PM) sionkumitomo: well that could be I dunno. I'm not an fc type at all I'm afraid
(2:32:10 PM) montolio: Please ask an FC if having 25 supers/caps unsupported doing predictable work for several hours past 04:00 is wise or not
(2:32:27 PM) montolio: heh
(2:32:51 PM) sionkumitomo: I'd really rather not. the fc types tend to be a bit on the diva side
(2:33:13 PM) montolio: the only reason I'm remotely comfortable about it is this is the kind of shit PL would ruin in the past
(2:34:10 PM) sionkumitomo: at any rate, now that mittani is back I'll assume you want to talk with him, and I shall appraise him of the situation.
(2:34:26 PM) montolio: im sure he is going to be very angry with me for being an unreasonable n***er
(2:35:11 PM) sionkumitomo: I'm not sure, I'm really not up on your relationship with him. I was only very recently assigned to you dudes
(2:35:27 PM) montolio: GOOD LUCK
Four days later we've had enough conspiracy stuff, and Vile Rat tells Monty that not only can he have W-4, 49-, NOL, he can have everything that GSF initially asked for because we were out. Enjoy your new three regions, peace - we can't handle the drama or the double-dealing. Meanwhile, Monty says he might step down and flirts with nailing himself on a cross. VR lays out some hard truths, that sadly don't seem to have gotten through many months later.
vile_rat: I think we're going to decline Delve ratting rights. Also we need to discuss the disposition of the querious outpost we dropped. Would you like to pay us the material cost for it? or we just keep it?
Montolio: I'm assuming just keeping it is fine may want to wait until tomorrow to make a decision on that though
vile_rat: How so?
Montolio: going to have a dreddit directors meeting tomorrow, might be stepping down
vile_rat: Well that was unexpected
Montolio: my abrasive diplomacy may not be what we need going forward
vile_rat: But why would that impact the purchase or non purchase of the staging system?
Montolio: depending on the outcome the new guy may want you guys to have more involvement etc.. it'll probably be status quo I've done this before and the dreddit directors unanimiously supported keeping me on
vile_rat: Ok then. Let's talk about the station then would you guys like to purchase the material cost or have us keep it?
Montolio: keep it probably The last two months of my dealings with you guys have been super rocky and im afraid thats my personal feelings getting in the way or something
vile_rat: What do you think is causing this rockiness
Montolio: I'm not entirely sure, cultural differences, difference perspectives, experience levels, goals etc. who knows but I feel like I've seriously damaged the relationship and one of our core values is our relationship with goons
vile_rat: Well, While our FC team can be blunt I can see why they are a bit upset right now
Montolio: I expected to patch it up during testival but I barely got more then two sentences out to mittens the entire time
vile_rat: I can tell you what test looks like from my eyes if you'd like. perhaps that will help with perspective
vile_rat: It is our perspective that you guys desperately want to be out from under our shadow both real and perceived
Montolio: we do, we don't want to be under any shadow we are fiercely independent but also fiercely loyal
vile_rat: We don't consider it a shadow and our efforts to be a friend to you are met with a perceived iciness and arms length We've never attempted to lord over test, we've never taken resources from you to keep for ourselves, (including pnqy)
Montolio: Right, you say "We are taking 49- to protect you" But thats not what we hear
vile_rat: not to protect you per se but you asked the coalition to come down and help you take the region for really no benefit to the coalition at all fine. We're not even fighting that. but you have displayed a need for the coalition, it was our intention to put the coalition at the front line to discourage people getting uppity in your space Your guys took it as imperial ambitions and a desire to control you and you as leader, did nothing to discourage this thinking. It's become toxic and honestly it's become the reality in the eyes of the common test grunt
Montolio: Which is one of the reasons I am talking to my directors Because I sympathize with the test grunt viewpoint
vile_rat And I contend it's based on a false premise and completely unfair to us and the work this entire coalition did to deliver you three regions on a platter with no expectation of any recompense
Montolio: Your motivations and goals are pure, but we'd rather be the ones attacked. If we can't defend these regions ourselves then its somewhat pointless
vile_rat: if our motivations and goals are pure, why do you help stoke the fire against us
Montolio: these systems will come out in our time zone
vile_rat: you could say "no, they are just being friends trying to make sure we're safe in our new home
Montolio: I do say that
vile_rat: but you egg them on. encourage that kind of talk act like we're assholes for even suggesting such an arrangement
Montolio: But we can defend it ourselves, at the very least we'd like to fail at defending it nobody has invaded us before; Even mentioning Raiden attacking Fountain got a bump in TEST fleet participation If 49- is the first hit on a d/p/q invasion and it belongs to GSF then when the invasion starts its 'The CFC is being attacked' and not 'We are being attacked'
vile_rat: what happens if you start to lose it.
Montolio: You guys lost several times and you seem better for it tbh. If TEST can't win in US TZ then we don't deserve it
vile_rat: I mean what is your expectation from us should you get invaded
Montolio: I wouldn't expect you to immediately deploy to defend and depending on how we handle things I may not even want you to defend
vile_rat: at what point will your directors start saying we've abandoned you
Montolio: When people start crying out for our saviors and you say no but it'll be me saying no at the start I don't know if that makes sense
vile_rat It's not fair to say you want to be invaded but when things become precarious you want us to rush in and fill the void
Montolio: I think we can hold it GSF and PL are the biggest potential threats and both of you are blue so taking the regions is an entirely different matter because of TZ coverage
vile_rat: so tell me specifically what you'd like from us moving forward.
Montolio: We are so entitled
vile_rat: (2:04:10 PM) firstname.lastname@example.org/home: We fight 50% of the war, CFC comes down GSF claims victory and stands up as backbone of the entire thing and then people don't want to do the grunt work at the end
Montolio: yeah I understand it and 80% of our income is shit you guys gave us
vile_rat: Since this was all for you.
Montolio: I was going to say be treated like equals But thats not really fair Because pretty much the only reason we can do what we do it because you gave us tech moons
vile_rat: We've been pretty rotten to you I admit!
Montolio: I guess what I want is help being the strongest possible ally we can be. A lot of this is just dumb narrative, like in the history of TEST, the grunt is going to remember this war in a certain way
vile_rat: Instead of realtalk from you all we get is angsty shit from bring and really vague displeasure from you without ever working with us to nail down exactly what it is
Montolio: The way they are going to remember PL is much rosier then how they will remember GSF
vile_rat: You have done little to build a positive narrative.
Montolio: I know, but its not easy because a lot of it comes from grass roots questions "Why are goons doing X" and sometimes the answer they just don't like
vile_rat: And how do you answer it.
Montolio: "To feel invested in the region and as a strategic bulkhead" etc and they just don't snap with that answer but its the real answer
vile_rat: Well now you can tell the happy masses that we're not going to be invested at all they should be thrilled.
Montolio: I want my dudes to feel a kinship with goons
vile_rat: You can even tell them that we listened to their concerns and want to be a good ally
Montolio: I feel like I've offended you but I am really trying to be as honest as possible
vile_rat: Hell even now our guys are helping you do the grunt afterwork to finish claiming your regions that you wanted for ourselves
Montolio: I feel like TEST can be the best ally you guys have, but in ways that you don't expect
You are a bad supervisor. Let me explain why:
you are the kind of guy who hears something from management that your direct employees won't like much and instead of helping to make it work, you confide in your guys that you think it's bullshit too but "sigh" I guess we have to do it if they are making us, which encourages people to think bad things about the decision and the decision makers in that instance
so in the end people think less of us, and you kinda encourage it
Montolio: Its not so much that, its that the middle management in TEST doesn't like it and that goes both up and down and sometimes I think its valid I mean J5A and PNQY, Was that ever useful? Was it ever needed? The bridge was unfueled a lot of the time
and the systems almost never touched The strategy on those two systems was sound, but in reality never needed
vile_rat: was it needed? We didn't know we had just taken fountain for you from IT. We didn't know what you could do to defend it, we didn't know if you were capable of it. If fountain fell, what fell next?
Montolio: And you are doing the same thing in d/q/p But we could defend it and we did and we won't know what TEST is capable of if we never let it happen. Like I said, your moves make sense in the grand scheme of things but goons only trust goons and not being trusted breeds resentment
vile_rat: I'd say you have the same issue vis a vis dreddit and test
Montolio: But, case in point, name a CFC region that GSF doesn't hold a system in
vile_rat: what does that matter? you know why we do that right?
Montolio: It doesn't, but you guys trust yourselves far beyond anyone else
vile_rat: why we have regions like branch with multiple alliances in it? You are right. Don't you trust yourselves more than you trust us? or is it only pejorative when applied to us?
Montolio: To be honest in a lot of situations we trust you more
vile_rat: then why not cut the passive aggressive shit out and just have this realtalk discussion
Montolio: I am and I have been trying but it always comes off as offensive or entitled, or rude. You guys trust yourselves, you have this grand strategy spanning half of EVE, you have a JB network that goes north to south. Its extremely impressive
But its the goon empire, you guys aren't harsh pet masters or whatever like BoB was But it is still undeniably your empire
and you guys have strategic systems in every region and you carefully manage all the allies in the coalition
But TEST isn't like the other alliances in the coalition, culturally we share more connections with the GSF way of doing things Which makes us want to be independent, want to run our own structures, want to be trusted We can't be goons if your being goons in the same places HEH
vile_rat: So what specifically do you want from us, what do you expect from us?
Montolio: ALL THE TECH
Anything you guys can do to minimize appearing to lord over us or coddle us, even if the appearance is wrong
vile_rat: We've felt like we've bent over backwards at every turn.
Montolio: That has been benefits though, hasn't there? maybe intagible benefits
vile_rat We're feeling unappreciated that's for damn sure
Montolio: Have we been worth it? well there is no way for us to help you, you never need it
vile_rat: we haven't asked for help.
Montolio: I know
vile_rat: You did. Were we there with everything we had, because you asked us to did we not do what you asked?
Montolio: How do I repay the debts when you never need anything? How can you guys NOT resent us?
vile_rat: We don't care about what you do for us
Montolio: I think we'd care but you guys are too good
vile_rat: we do care that we've done everything we could to give you what you asked for and we feel like we're being shat on by test directorate. In addition the test directorate is letting a nasty situation get nastier by not helping build the narrative the way it actually is so the average test guy ends up resentful and completely bought in to this false narrative that we're building an empire and want the best space in delve and try to keep everybody in our shadow which we strongly feel isn't the case. We do resent that.
Montolio: Even if I came out strongly saying the proper narrative, which I did do many times internally, a lot of people won't buy it
vile_rat: Then lead.
As it stands in DQPB you got everything. We're taking nothing for ourselves. Three regions, a whole coalition, to give this to you
Montolio: Did anyone need anything? Or do they
vile_rat: It's a bit late to have that discussion
Montolio: I mean in general
vile_rat: You've already made it clear that the area is yours.
These 'issues' are basically red herrings designed to distract from the truth of what has transpired: Monty wanted to whack one of our allies, got caught, was quietly removed from a Jabber channel, and has completely lost his shit and readied for total war over this grave offense. And we can't really figure out why.
I know that we nerds love arguing over the internet, and this drama is an opportunity for an airing of obscure, stupid grievances. Let's not lose sight of what has actually transpired here, and why so abruptly we are nearly at war with TEST: Montolio.