The EVE-Uni Botting Controversy

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All the histrionics were amusing to watch. It's amazing what happens when a little facts get mixed in.
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CSM7 highsec representative acts like Special Snowflake, whats new ?
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So eve-u is confirmed bad and a bunch of finger pointing children. Got it, thank you.
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I might get a little hysterical over 317 billion isk.
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Sounds like eve university needs to pour some cheerups on their paincakes
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Well, looks like it's time to sell that Titan now.
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The inability of petitions to be made public leaves their content forever secret. The secrecy of GM's mean they have no accountability for what they have said(or not said). Thus the petition system is fundamentally flawed as customers(players) only other option is to go public without being able to provide any proof for your points. Going public without proof is what has happened above and we can all agree its a mess no matter which way you look at it.I personally think the petition system needs to be reformed to the extent that any petition can be made public so the community can hold the GM's/CCP accountable for their actions. I am sure the petition system could be improved in other ways too, but until we know of it works(officially) we cannot know how...
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The logs showed something!
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How would you response if it would happen to you?
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Welcome to TMDC Mr. EN24What was your point? It doesn't matter what alliance he is part of, it could have happened to every Alliance...
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If I accepted 300b ISK from a banned botter? I would expect it and not cause a fuss because that's fucking retarded.
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Please show me your prove........ and this post is also about not having the ability to escalateAlso your reply in EN24 level
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He escalated in every which way possible, and made a post after he was not happy with the verdict.There's a difference between not being able to escalate, and not being happy with the verdict once you've exhausted your options. Sometimes, even if you're Kelduum Revaan, lord of the newbies, you're *wrong*. Deal with it.
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The logs show nothing.....I think we all know how horrible it can be to communicate with CCP Cutomer Service and I have the feeling that in that case they just stonewalled.Also how does explain that he is a "3th party" when the ISK was removed from his toon?
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You simply can't make a fuss over botted ISK. If CCP says it was botted ISK, you drop it. End of story.By not letting it go and pursuing the botted ISK like you are entitled to it just makes you look bad, as if you were involved in how it was acquired.
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If I worked hard to make that much ISK and it was taken away, I would get hysterical too. But Kelduum didn't work hard to make it. It was a donation from a botter. Vastly different circumstances.
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So I say you are a Criminal, a Terrorist and you look ugly, and you smell bad, via the internet!I am waiting for your response....
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So the fact that he was botting isn't in dispute? We deserve a better CSM. I wonder how James 315 would've handled this case?
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Even the biggest idiot should understand why CCP shouldn't have to have every player discipline decision reviewed publically. It would slow petition handling to a complete halt.
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Thanks for your frenzied attempts to muddy the water and make this about everything except botting in Eve Uni and Kelduum's (at best) hilariously poor judgement.
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Hey guy get over yourself. Its a video game, it is THEIR game, their server, their personnel and their policies. Everyone agrees to this when they create an account. Deal with it.
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The problem being they weren't told it was botted ISK, they were told "go away, it's none of your business" --- Which is shitty customer service at the least, especially to someone (on the CSM no less) who is making the effort to guarantee than an organization CCP acknowledges is important with helping new players stays clean of botting and RMT.This entire "drama" doesn't occur if the GM simply says "Thank you for bringing this to our attention, the ISK is botted and we are taking it." --- an entirely simple message that would nullify any outrage, butthurt, or rage threads. Once again CCP makes their life more complicated by poor customer skills.
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Kelduum being a manipulative, lying psychopath? Imagine my surprise!Eve Uni constantly impresses me with its ability to do so much good in eve while having such a moron at its top.
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Not that I'm a big fan of market bots, but your facts are simply wrong.1. a market bot does not inject isk into the economy - it makes the botter money, but that isk comes from other players, so it's a zero increase in economy isk.2. there is a benefit to players in that market bots act to bring the sell price and buy price closer. It might not be of value to other traders and thus unfair, but to other users of the market there is an advantage in being able to trade more quickly and in a more sophisticated market (economically speaking).
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But according to Eve's EULA it isn't a banable offence?
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Uh, he wasn't able to escalate, and he was given no reason as to why the ISK was removed.
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Just thought I'd add that there's more to Iceland than 'EVE Online'
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you're right, Iceland has a broad range of other things, such as what is literally a penis museum and that hot dog stand where Bill Clinton ate one timeanyway the "lol iceland" thing is just a joke, everyone knows about Iceland's prosperous, uh, fishing industry
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I expect the EVE UNI CEO feels like a bit of a dufus now for petitioning CCP. No 300 billion isk for you! (In my best soup nazi voice).
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There is, but when they had their economic meltdown during most of the last decade, CCP was the only company keeping the entire nation afloat, financially. Everyone else in the nation decided they were banking geniuses for investing borrowed money in businesses they didn't understand.CCP only fell for that line far enough to buy White Wolf
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I have no idea what this guy did or didn't, certainly seems dodgy, but Team Security do get it wrong more times than they'd care to admit. Their default response is always "We're right, the computer doesn't lie!". If you're innocent, provided you can prove the method, it's worth escalating. I was involved with the farming of highsec static plexes that got deemed an exploit a year or so ago. Most of us got banned for "macro use", and neg walleted to the tune of a few hundred billion. CCP believed there was no way you could farm 23/7 without using a bot.It took weeks of petitioning (read: Team Security calling us cheats), but eventually one of us managed to get in touch with a GM who knew basic game mechanics, sent him a step by step guide of what we'd been doing (cap stable domis, with RR's on sentries, legion boosts), which he then forwarded to a Dev. We were promptly all cleared, reimbursed and given some game time (the icing on the cake being a "sorry" from Team Security). CCP then banned the activity, as it was less effort than changing their flawed detector.So no, it's not always "End of Story"
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So if I join bot university, I guess I won't learn how to not get banned.
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Kelduum sounds like a bit of a dick to be honest.
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while they own the game and client they could be sued for libel or slander depending on media used. This is why they never share information on another player in case they get it wrong
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If somebody handed me 317 billion ISK I'd go buy a titan or 3 as fast as fucking possible, so that when CCP follows the trail of player donations and takes it all back, they eventually take it all back from the seller and I get 3 free titans. \o/
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I think he is saying the market bots are the lowest of the low because they directly interfere with other players. Think market PvP bot that can do everything 10x faster than a normal person can.
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It's not that people disrespect E-UNI, it's the fact that their CEO has dragged their good name through the mud, and then taken a dirty great dump on it. By publicly attacking Team Security and trying to cast doubt on their decision he has dragged E-UNI down with him, what doesn't help is that some E-UNI members toed the corporate line and tried to defend his stance. This incident has left both Kelduums' and the E-UNI reputation in tatters. Hardly the actions expected of someone who is on the CSM and who claims to represent the playerbase.
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I wasn't disagreeing with them being low. I was pointing out that his facts, specifically in regards to injecting isk into the economy are wrong. However, on second reading, I misread "ratting bots" as "market bots" and he was in fact not stating that market bots inject isk, making my previous post a bit silly.
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The problem with that is: everyone knows the only reason they confiscate isk from wallets as a GM action is because of buying or botting isk. So they did know, Kelduum wanted special snowflake entitlement with an appeal process and maybe an out of court settlement
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nope
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He specifically says, twice, that you will NOT be banned for it. Exactly how is that him "considering it a bannable offense"Seriously, you are trying so very very hard to be offended and outraged.
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Except that would be revealing private information. What would you prefer, CCP get sued and end up not replying at all to any questions, or your EVE Uni leader (and terrible CSM member) harden up and realise he's making himself and his organisation look like a bunch of idiots?
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Yeah, lets be fair. There's Dust as well.
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Skreegs has confirmed he was botting 100%. Keldum all but admitted to the fact (when he admitted he 'only' made 30 market changes per minute for 20 minutes). So no, security team did not do it wrong, not by a long shot.
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But they DIDN'T SAY HE WAS BOTTING. They said "it's none of your business." They took 300+ Billion and said literally nothing about why it was taken.A simple "it was botted money" would have prevented this entirely. That was never said, at least until the E-Uni bitch session.
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Anybody else find this hilariously funny ?
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Did they need to ? Isn't it blatantly obvious ? Frankly, stretching this out and demanding further explanation embarrasses Eve-Uni even more, they are just looking silly now.From an objective viewpoint this should have been left unpublicized.Huge public thread on Eve-uni forum? Mittani.com article?Not clever./me supports CCP in anti-botting action
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Hey, it's the start of Campaign season. This must be what he plans to campaign on.
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In one post he says that he is the final arbiter of who gets banned for what.In another post he says that cache scraping should be illegal.In further posts, he refuses to clarify whether or not Cache scraping is actually legal.
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Agreed. Literally everything Kelduum has said and done about this screams of him being butthurt over lost isk that was never his or the Uni's to begin with. Even if one were to believe his words that he only brought this whole issue in the public to get a proper answer from CCP and to make some kind of point about nobody watching over the security team, who exactly does he think he is to feel so above everyone else that he'd be entitled for that answer regarding something that doesn't concern him one bit.He petitioned the isk, either fully knowing that it is fishy or at the very least suspecting it, that isk was taken away. That's clue enough that it was indeed fishy, does that need to be spelled out any more than that? I don't think so. The crusade he started against the security team is quite literally laughable at best, as is the accusations that CCP is introducing bugs and features that harm the Uni, just to spite them. On top of that watching him defend this botter based on nothing but the botters word, all the while discrediting the security team for not presenting any proof of said botting? Talk about hypocritical...And before the brainwashed unistas comment on this and start their drivel about me having a personal grudge against the uni... There is none. I still sit in the uni channel helping out the newbies and answering their questions every single day, would I be doing that if I had something against the uni itself? The only person in the uni I have gripes with is Smoogle, who is being protected just like this botter here by allowing him to troll his own forums and ban everyone who calls him out on that. Amusingly enough, I could ask Kelduum about who watches over his security team? Obviously it is no one...The new CSM can not be elected quickly enough, so we get rid every single person like Kelduum that does nothing but push their own interests with zero consideration for the rest of the game.
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Well, if you try to fight against directors decisions in the Uni then you will be told that "Directors decisions are non of your buisness", they are not subject to democratic discussion or decisionmaking, Uni is a so called friendly Dictatorship and Directors Decisions are allways right and never explained. When Silentbrick stopped us from doing "Drunken monkey roams" that was exactly the line of argument. So I wonder why Uni wonders why CCP should act in any way different then they themselves think is the right way.
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It is interesting though, how Kelduum is getting hysterical asif he did work hard for it. Almost seems like maybe he was the one botting the isk or something.Just sayin.
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In theory market bots could bring the sell price and buy price closer. Another effect they may have is to reduce the supply and competition for an item, as real players get discouraged and disenchanted by the 23/7 0.01 isking and either move to items/regions that aren't heavily botted or find ways other than the market to make isk.However, I do believe that in most cases the botters are driving prices down. Without an un-adultered market to compare with though, there is no way to really say this for certain.
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To my knowledge the only solvent industries in Iceland during the worst part of the meltdown were CCP, heavy metals mining operations and vodka distilleries, in that order. Seem to recall a news article to that effect on one of the EU news sites.
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It's not the botting, it's not the ISK, it's the customer service (or lack thereof). Some people need to train their reading comprehension skill.
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So let's get to the crux of the matter. Who is "John"?
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Eve is important internet spaceships and stuff. This is important.
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Huzzah! Here I was going to point out where YOU were wrong, heh.I agree that market bots' effect on the economy could be seen as positive by some, providing a more reliable, stable market. I would ask though why that is a particularly good thing? Convenience and pennies savings for the average joe? Sometimes convenience trumps savings, sometimes the other way around. A dynamic market like this benefits eve directly, encouraging player-driven content creation, and providing a playground for the 'enablers'. If the market is ALWAYS convenient, and there is ALWAYS a savings, what do we have?Homogenization. Might as well take away the markets completely and NPC seed everything at a set price.Market bots may not proliferate now to the extent of this doomsday scenario, and I hope they never do. Decisive action against botting in all forms is good. Letting people think they can 'get away' with benefiting from botting, directly or indirectly, is bad.
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Right, this dude market bots up 317B worth of isk and gets a 2 week temp ban. CCP simply suspects I'm using a macro and I get perma banned.... GG CCP, fucking retards.
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I cop a lot of flak for my annoyance at CCP. However few care or understand why. It's basically what's described here in this article. I don't flat out disagree with the motives of CCP but the lack of transparency in process and the questionable ethical behavior to get to an outcome is not right.Not all of us have the platform of the CSM, EU or TMDC to air our grievances when they have been the subject of similar treatment.
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Obvious botting. But many people assume CCP and common players only care about mining bots. Or about combat macros that can change PVP outcomes.Typical EVE political hypocrisy -- like CODE players using multiple trial accounts (separate IPs & machines) and macros to take down supposed Mining bots - which are usually just people who blocked their inane chat, are AFK or at worst legally using multiple accounts. More a case of chat IDs AFK mining and targets that are not only defenseless but not like to evade -- such easy targets just beg to be killed and looted.(FYI mining bots are actually not necessary to run multiple account 24x7 esp where 3 shifts of labor is cheap. Keeping bot software updated is more expensive than unskilled Chinese labor scanning 8-12 accounts by switching display every 5 seconds. A couple mouse clicks updates mining barge and scanning resumes. Heck they can even chat briefly.)
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What everyone seems to miss here is that "John" never created any of this ISK; He simply moved it into his wallet from other sources. CCP have actually destroyed the ISK that "John" accumulated from other player's hard work. To analogise that against the real world, what do you think your country's legal system does with, as it's put in my country, the Proceeds Of Crime?

Drama in EVE tends to be confusing and shadowy at the best of times. In this case, we have a CSM member and CEO of one of the most promient organizations - EVE University - going after CCP's Security Team over a decision to temporarily ban a member of EVE University for market botting, and confiscating 317 billion ISK after the player had donated it to the corporation prior to biomassing his character.

The player, referred to as "John" for the sake of anonymity, had been temporarily banned from EVE. In an unusual twist, the player's ISK and assets had not been confiscated, as is usually the case with botting-related account actions - an oversight that CCP acknowledged. After the ban, the player liquidated his assets and donated 317 billion ISK to EVE University, which was confiscated after a director petitioned to ensure whether it was safe to use.

After a series of petitions back and forth between EVE University and CCP regarding the confiscated 317b, Kelduum went public calling CCP Security to account for their actions in a public thread on the EVE University forums, which was promptly upvoted to the top of the EVE subreddit. 

Unfortunately, it seems that Kelduum may have been too trusting. In his thread, he offers the following explanation for the banned member's behavior: 

It transpires that “John” had been temporarily banned from EVE as CCPs ‘Team Security’ had identified his actions as ‘suspect’ - he was a station trader, and a very good one at that, playing trade markets in EVE like a professional, using the common tools available, as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself - the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.

We need not point out that a human cannot update 30 orders a minute without the use of a bot; in common parlance, a 'custom tool that allows you to update an order every two seconds' is a 'market bot'. 

Given the attention the controversy has attracted, the head of CCP's security team, CCP Sreegs, has taken the unusual move of commenting publicly on the matter:

There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.
3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is the Executive Producer and then the CEO. This is a higher level of escalation than the Customer Service arm and IA automatically looks at our work. I'm not sure why we feel we should be able to escalate higher than the highest reasonable authority but the fact is that this team operates with significant oversight. We believe the issue here to be more that this particular CSM feels he isn't in the loop, something which is quite frankly the only proper way to do business in a unit that handles secrets.

Frankly we're a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn't a lack of an escalation path and never will be. 

There are a number of interesting follow-up posts by CCP Sreegs in the EVE-O thread. We decline to comment on the controversy itself, as it has rapidly escalated into a classic 'he said, she said' situation, save that even the defenders of the alleged botter seem to acknowledge that he was botting save for definitional quibbles about the nature of botting itself. 

 

Update: Kelduum has replied to Sreegs, updating his original post on the Eve-Uni forums with the following:

I'd love to know what I was selectively reporting exactly, barring the things I cant post, but still...

Replying to each of the points:
1. Then all we needed to be told was "The ISK came from botting". I had asked if this was the case, and was bushed off repeatedly, being told that "its nothing to do with you", despite us actually having the ISK. In fact, this has happened a couple of times in the past when we have had donations which came from botting or RMT, and as the CEO I received a courteous mail outlining what had happened and why the ISK went missing.
2.a) The only words which could be construed as an apology were related to the one week response in the original petition. At no point has an apology for not removing the ISK earlier been made. I'd love to post the text of the petitions and/or other things, but that would get me banned.
2.b) The petition was responded to by one member of CCP staff, at one level, and on asking for it to be escalated, was told there is no escalation at all for the security team. As mentioned, I asked around if anyone knew of another escalation path, and reached dead ends, and statements that there is literally no higher authority than themselves. Again, I can't post this proof.
3. At no point was this explained, anywhere, by anyone. If it had been, then it could of been handled quietly. I'll leave the rest of that section detailing that members of the security team being oversight for the security team as exercise for the reader to determine if they think this is a good idea or not.

Finally, not getting any answer is what causes people to look for an escalation path, at which point being told there is no higher authority (which is now revealed to have been a falsehood) is what causes unnecessary drama like this.

The missing apology, and the missing explanation were what was being asked for. Its nice to have them, finally.

Update: Destructoid reached out to CCP for comment on the issue, and the company had this to say: 

There’s not a time where we happily remove ISK from players--unless they’ve done something wrong and then it’s more of a duty as strengthened by policy. There is recourse and escalation in the event of a false positive. The security team works jointly with many departments including Legal and Internal Affairs to make sure they “get things right” and continuously evaluates their processes. In terms of “accountability”, the security team is ultimately beholden to the Executive Producer, our legal department and then of course to our CEO.

For us, it’s a best practice not to discuss specific security investigations and actions with third parties.  Even though CCP is probably one of the most open and communicative companies in all the gaming industry, we simply have to keep some areas of our company a bit secret in order to be effective. Botters and RMTers will take any shred of methodology they can learn from us and alter their ways to avoid detection. For the health of EVE and the benefit of our EULA-abiding players, it’s actually best we aren’t as transparent as some people might wish in terms of tactics and strategies.

Goonswarm Federation CEO, Space Tyrant. Likes yoga, Alaskan Malamutes, bacon, and delegation.