DUST 514: Eve Culture Shock and Grief University

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However, in my opinion, if Awoxing is to be an acceptable fact of life in Dust, they needed to really change things up with how corporations are run and planetary conquest is handled. Make it more of a player corp effort, tools available to eve corps made available in dust as well, etc etc.I am not experienced in corp management and I am far too ignorant about Dust mechanics to really give very good views about the matter, so feel free to chip in or correct my impressions.
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I think it's pretty obvious that this is an exploit. Corporate sabotage in EVE is all well and good because there are counters to it, in this case, though, the only way to counter it is not to play. I sincerely doubt the tools are there to properly vet every applicant, and it's inevitable that a spy is going to slip through a gap somewhere - and when they do, you can't stop them from doing that damage, no matter what you do, while in EVE, you can at least fight back, and this saboteur isn't taking up one of your limited spots in a battle.I applaud emergent gameplay because, well, emergent gameplay is great. Exploits are not.
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The counters are being discussed, but as Nova Knife from CPM0 has said, there SHOULD be corporate espionage and treachery, it is what sets Dust apart from other games. Quite a chunk of CPM are against the use of kick MID-GAME. Let the damage be done, maybe tell everyone ingame he's a spy and kill him all the time, then kick them after the match. Its New Eden for bloody sake.
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there do need to be more tools available to corp directors in dust. a kick from game feature would be nice to get rid of the player. If they want to spy and stuff, make them work for the payoff and make the effort more strategic. the meta-game is great but increase the risks and rewards.
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Working as intended.
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I haven't yet seen evidence of an exploit in the game mechanics.Until I do, kindly stop referring to these events as such.
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There's a lot in this article that basically says "This is just DUST pulling even with EVE in terms of metagame", but that seems (IMO at least) to miss that EVE gives corps a lot more tools that can be used to protect themselves from awoxing than DUST does; EVE has account-wide API keys that tell you whose alt a character is, kill logs that show up any blue-on-blue violence in a character's past and an easy-to-find corp history (I can check a DUSTie's history through EVE, no idea how to do it ingame) that shows if they were recently part of a hostile group or an organisation that's known for griefing. It's also possible in EVE for specific corp/alliance players to be excluded from fleets and operations by making them invite-only or tweaking standings requirements and personal standings, which can be used to keep unproven members out of strategic battles.Until DUST offers similar tools for its merc corps, the situations aren't really comparable. That said I'd definitely like to see DUSTies get those tools and keep a metagame rather than ditch all friendly fire to keep the players comfy and safe.
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Maybe just let corporations revoke access to clones for spies that shed their cover mid-match. The spy gets to keep wreaking havoc for as long as he can stay alive, but once he dies it's over and the corp can send in a (hopefully more trustworthy) replacement.I don't play DUST, but are kills (with the ID of both victim and killer shown) broadcasted to everyone in the match? It'd be interesting if spies could do more subtle sabotage that wouldn't immediately be known if they were careful about it.
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From what I've read, any member of the corporation can invite an entire squadron of non-corpmates to join a planetary conquest match which has a player cap for one team of 16 players. A squad is, I believe, 6 players, so they can throw the match. The exploitation or loophole being abused is that any member of the corporation can do this, with no roles or corporate management.I'm not saying that this sort of behavior should be patched out, but saying that this is EXACTLY the way it should be is like saying that every corp hangar in EVE should be open to every member of the corporation and players should "vet their members better" to avoid theft.If DUST becomes an important facet of EVE but you can just throw a lot of important matches by abusing this, I don't think people will be so happy with it.
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Sounds more like an oversight than an exploit.
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From Wikipedia: "An exploit (from the verb to exploit, in the meaning of using something to one’s own advantage) is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behaviour"The keywords being "vulnerability" and "unintended [...] behaviour".
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There is no 'intended' behavior either, involved in this little oversight.Requoting your quote: "...is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability"This is simply something that was missed. Until specified otherwise by CCP themselves, they simply forgot to assign roles. There is no glitch, bug or sequence of commands performing an unintended task here.Just an oversight of roles.
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Here's the real problem: Eve grew up with meta-gaming, Dust is launching with Eve's meta-gaming culture from birth.
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Wait... did we really just start arguing semantics here?
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No, we're arguing technicalities.
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Its just so adorable how easy it is to rile up the "hardcore FPS" community in DUST by talking about the meta-game and how their leaderboard rankings don't really matter at all. Its even more fun since its pretty damn true.
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Touche, good sir.
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Yes they are broadcasted. Like Nova said, let them wreak their havoc, then kick them from the corp after the match.
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Just wait for CREST ;)
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Console gamers used to COD clearly have a lot to get used to in a FPS MMO, they can either adapt, remember it's a game, or ragequit and go back to COD...
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Harvesting tears from scrubs being part of that contractual obligation.
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"Whatever CCP decides, one thing is for certain: awoxing ignited a flame in the DUST community, reviving a game that has been waning in player interest for months. In one day, the game was brought back to life. "This neatly states why awoxing and other forms of internet spacecowboys fuckery will not only be allowed but encouraged. Shooting at people is great fun and all, but shooting at people you really want to make suffer is infinitely more engaging. Nothing stimulates the game like a good dose of vengence, treachery, double-dealing and espionage.
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Spies!
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Yeah its one round of a match, if all spies could do was welp a single fleet and be kicked in EVE then we'd be complaining about their not being enough opportunity for spies to do damage. Could a highly placed spy in Dust do the same kind of damage with roles they can in EVE? If so we can expect some glorious tears in the future.
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Why don't they have the concept of a "fleet", and only fleet members can participate in a battle? (Call them "battalions" or "kampfgruppe" or whatever, of course).
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The main problem I see is not the mid match or after a match aspects of this its the beforehand, there is no way to prevent this before a match apart from vetting every member of the corp which is hard as we dont have access to the api like we do in eve, what we need is security in place (corp roles) which restrict access to corp matches if the corp choises to use them (corp has option to have corp matches open to join in by everyone or only by those with roles) so only squad leader with a role can bring his squad into matches so a spy has to earn trust to get invited into the match, this is more new eden then "hey i joined corp i now possible to screw up there hard work with no effort"
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Hence what I meant by counters ;) That as you are right is a given, but also can be mitigated by having recruitment or "l33t" sub-corps. We will have to see what CCP does.
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Imagine fleets in Eve being made up of random squads led by at least one member of your corp and once formed you had no way to removed these squads. Pizza would have a field day.
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Go you Jenza! You had me crying laughing on Skype yesterday *sniggers again* Delicious tears indeed! Welcome to New Eden Dusties :D However there are some valid points others have made-corps should be able to have a few more tools in order to assign roles/vet new players etc-we have those in Eve-not they will save you from a clued up determined spy-but at least you have a fighting chance to weed out the obvious folks up to no good. Who knows...perhaps these terrible people doing these terrible things may even have been trying to flag up these very issues while have a few laughs along the way.....just a thought..;)
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what makes it lame is that the victims cant really strike back.Im playing alittle dayz origins the last days, and i just executed one of my squadmates because he wanted to grief the dudes we just shot (destroy their graves so their gear would dissapear), so he had, to get back to where we were, spawn where the guys we just shot spawned.All fruitless of course, because by the time he respawned, those guys were alredy hunting him (seems like some had told them in sidechat that our guy just respawned close buy;) while the rest of us was flying home in our choppers, muted him n teamspeak and let him suffer for around an hour and some respawns before i flew to evac him back to base.I bet a much bigger part of the eve/dust community would approve griefing if the game mechanics wouldnt prevent a simmiliar form of severe punishment.
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Yes, but they lost the soldier and couldn't bring a new one instead. Which is the way it should be, people are advocating that they should be able to bring an entirely new clone to the battle from the other side of the cluster, which IMHO is a bad idea (lore wise and meta-gameplay wise)
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A lot of you guys are missing the point of what's wrong here. It's not spais or awoxing; It's broken (or, maybe more accurately, entirely missing) mechanics.Imagine for a minute that EVE fleets were limited to a hard cap of (for example) 16 people and were only available during strat ops. Once the timer is close to being up, anyone in the alliance can join fleet, and ONLY those in alliance can join the fleet. Once in fleet, nobody can be kicked. Also, shooting an awoxer/spai only hurts you faster (them repeatedly suiciding also has an even faster effect).That's what we're dealing with in DUST right now.
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If there is no way for you to control MM, and to keep them completely out of a planet in conquest or defense, then I kind of sympathize. Lets say that you vet them and all, but they simply create their own corp and enroll in some defense / offense action and get into the game and start awoxing, that's not exactly good. May be limit FF to corp mates and squad mates, but not anything outside of that definition so you have to join them and spy then awox them in the back.But OTTH, dust is meant to be F2P, drawing in HUGE numbers. It needs to be like WoW and less EvE, from the growth view point, CCP would need to make it accessible and normal for the F2Payers to get in the game.
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Sounds like forum warrioring in Dust514 has started in earnest.
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logging in - agreeing to non consensual pvp
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Being a player in the EVE universe, i must say that im glad that Dust is happily walking in the steps of EVE to show players that its much more than kills and corps taking locations, Its the real deal! and it fucks with everyone, and all the carebears wanna do is cry about it b/c its not another COD rip off and your safe from the harm of AWOXing. the gamers need to learn and deal with the game and realize that this is bigger than your average FPS, and that this might be the new wave of how we play FPS's now days. all in all Welcome to New Eden, if you dont like it i will be happy to Pod you back into the Stone age.
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Dust is still in its infancy, im sure that when DUST becomes a bigger more real part of EVE that all the corp management will be better and safer, for now just looking it up will take more time, but if it means keeping yourself safe from AWOXing then its worth every minute
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Prediction: CCP will make an adjustment to protect Dusties from too much Awoxing. Probably the ability to kick characters out of a unit involved in fight. The reason is that most of the consol players that ccp wants to attract are not mature gamers, to steryotype, they are imature consol players who will not put up with this kind of game when there are so many other shooter games to choose from. Don't forget ccp started this venture to get a piece of the consol pie, which is big $$$, they won't want to loose the potential cash cow.
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Or, create a commander role that has the ability to set IFF allegiance on the fly during the match. If/when you catch the AWOXer and set them red, they lose access to the MCC (no vehicle spawning) as well as to any CRUs. To be able to spawn they need to set their own uplink up or hack a CRU after the fact.Of course the other team could set them blue and let them use their equipment!
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Gah, no editing?Forgot to add that being unable to spawn for some period of time should result in you getting booted, this is only because there is a limited number of slots available and they've already delt with the AWOXer.
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Dust is still relatively new, the corp management and roles mechanics will come with time, as they did in Eve. CCP are usually very good at introducing new mechanics as and when required, you only have to look at their response to corporations teaming up to accomplish something, from that came the alliance mechanic which is now a mainstay of Eve.Dust is not just another FPS, just as Eve is not just another MMO, both games are so much more than their competition, and they're intertwined so much that things like AWOXing are just the start of the asshattery that's coming to Dust soon™.I don't play Dust so I'm unfamiliar with what you can and can't do with it, if looting corpses etc are a possibility (if corpse looting isn't then it should be) then I can see ganking and all the other shenanigans we get up to in Eve becoming valid gameplay options to add to the mix. For example if you fit your Dustbunny out with expensive gear, expect to get ganked for it, by your corpies :pirate:.
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Sorry this is just classic TKing and in an FPS if this behavior becomes prevalent players will simply stop playing. Meaning the only people willing to deal with it are EVE players, so now you have just limited your customer base to 500k people of which now they need a PS3 and then they need to be interested in an FPS. Thats a very small pool to draw upon for a f2p game.The fact is Dust is not a sandbox like EVE and its mechanics are ill equipped to handle awoxxers unlike EVE. In a 16 on 16 battles with one on your team tking lowering your clone count and now your down a person the the enemy affectively up, that's a big hit. Now combine the fact you have RL money on the line and if this things happens a lot people will stop paying. If the game is to turn a profit they will need to implement things to discourage this behavior.
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So Dust 514 is Carl basically
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This article was kind of hard to read, not from a literacy point of view, it was written fine, it was just painful. I think the author's description is sort of a tell-all anyways. I guess I'm fine with bias, just not on such an item that very few understanding outside of Dust514 forum-goers.What I'm gathering is "Eve mechanics (2k fleetfights) being in Dust (16v16) is perfectly okay because it's in EVE and the two are the same universe. This is funny and we need the ability to disband alliances, throw fights, and ruin the work of many with as little work as possible, no pre-planning, no lying, spying or preperations as day old newbies because it's emergent! Better yet people are whining about it!"What I should be gathering is "So there's a way for one person in a corp, from day-old to founder, to welp what is essentially a sov-fight without any corp roles or overhead ability to stop it because there is no system inside of the game to handle stuff like that, and singular people are using it to influence gameplay on a larger scale then EVE can ever see, insert translation of 16v16 to 1000 man fleetfight and how it would be impossible to do what can happen in EVE without much hard work, spying, lying, and preperation. Here is an overview of what happens and why, here is some examples of it happening. One side of discussion here, other side of discussion here."This is somewhat frightening to say, but I think I'm getting a more balanced article in the comments section :I
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Adapt or Die.Be more clever.Be able to respond to threats in a more comprehensive manner.Be able to perceive what can not be seen.Know the difference between sight and perception.For those of you who are still doubting not only the rightness of these actions, but how they actually help the game, there is a little video for you to watch, created by the Devs of EVE, who are also the Devs of DUST. If you do not remember the meaning of HTFU, go out now, in RL and get a tattoo of it on your left forearm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...The pain will do you good.EVE and DUST do *NOT* exist for your entertainment. You must carve out a piece of raw "pre-fun" material, find (or buy or steal) the plans for "fun", gather people together to build "fun", guard against those who would stop you from constructing "fun" and expand the personnel and support systems for "fun".This is not a console "game", you will *NOT* be given "Fun", it is another node of the New Eden simulation, adjust your expectations accordingly.Yours in Imperial Plasma,Star*Dagger
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Frankly there are Whining Worms and then there are Winning Warriors, huge difference in attitude.I hope they do leave, EVE has shown that it does not need nor want the whining worms (middle class, mt dew guzzling, cartoon watching, overweight do-nothing whose every other sentence is "whatever"). EVE has steadily increased its subs and maintained a fairly strict adherence to its core principle of an unremittingly hardcore simulation based on survival of the fittest and sandbox mechanics.I look forward to the Exodus of the Whining Worms, and a New Galactic Order under the Winning Warriors.Yours in Corrective Plasma,Star*Dagger
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Metagame is good. Probably why Eve is as prosperous as it is now.
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Except, Betamax is all scrubs.
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What, no mention of the two CPM members using their positions to disseminate private knowledge of reinforcement timer exploits, allowing them to indefinitely keep a district.
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As in EVE, we do not want the weak and those unable to hack it.
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To the cunning mastermind behind Grief University:I told you I knew who you were, tryhard.
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You are thinking of toward the end. I am talking about during their first deployment. It was one soldier who went berserk and was shut down.
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Good point. I like that. This way there is still some damage done because they are down a slot for fighters, yet they can deal with the issue as the lore states.
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Dust's mechanics along with being able to create essentially an infinite number of PSN accounts make this AWOXING simply too easy to do and too effective. Right now corporations have only 2 real ways to completely defend themselves is to put new recruits into a recruitment corp or keep their districts in a holding corp, both solutions which create headaches for corporations. I'm all for New Eden's brand of treachery and paranoia, but you can't tell me a guy with an alt. account made a week ago can hurt an EVE corp. in a battle significantly and if someone is playing a long con they at least have to pay a second subscription to CCP.

It has been three days since spies from Grief University set the DUST community on fire with their sabotage of a DUST Uni Planetary Conquest match. They boldly proclaimed their actions on the DUST forums, triggering a lively response from players that ranged from praise to recommendations to commit suicide. They followed up with another attack on R.I.f.t. later that evening, prompting the victims to create their own thread of discussion with the title "[HUMBLED] Infiltrated by spies in PC". More threads popped up, speculating as to the identity of Grief University's members and complaining that corporations could no longer accept new members without care or regard to their backgrounds. But what's most startling is a newly-made and now-locked thread entitled "Calling for the Removal of Jenza Aranda and Iron Wolf Saber from CPM0".

THE EVE-FPS CULTURE SHOCK

For those of us not in the know, DUST 514 is (or will be) heavily linked to the EVE Online universe. DUST mercenaries fight on EVE planets in low and high security systems for employers such as the Serpentis Corporation, Caldari State, or Ishukone. Corporations exist in both games, and while wallets are currently separate, player presences span both games.

EVE is the MMO that comes closest to actually living up to the "you can do anything" claim that companies toss around from time to time. You can attempt to peacefully mine or run missions against NPC pirates, manufacture components at a starbase you own, or explore space anomalies. All these are rather peaceful professions and somewhat similar to other MMO offerings. What makes EVE unique is the number and types of PvP actions you can partake in: piracy, fleet battles, harassment, extortion, scamming, spying, sabotage, embezzlement, and awoxing.

Awoxing is the act of using a spy character to cause overt harm or damage to a corporation. In EVE, this usually means sneaking a character into a corporation and blowing up, tackling, or harassing blues. In more extreme cases, an awoxer might warp an entire fleet directly into the waiting arms of the victims' enemy. Chain smokers live by awoxing; they sneak into high sec miner corporations that want nothing to do with PvP and promptly destroy their expensive ships, harvesting ISK and tears along the way.

It's this kind of metagaming that FPS games lack. When someone sneaks into a clan and spies or wreaks havoc, they tend to be promptly booted, shamed, called all sorts of names, and potentially disqualified from whatever event they were involved in. Basically, it's a big no-no. In EVE, you get the opposite reaction. It's a fact of life and tends to provide capsuleers with entertainment. Whatever the carebears in space might claim, such behavior is not only expected, it's sanctioned by CCP.

THE BUILDING TENSION

DUST spent months of open beta with no viable metagame. Awoxing was technically possible, but with such an immature metagame it wasn't worthwhile. There were no star systems to lose, planets to burn, or players to scorn. The most advanced "awoxing" incidents were the efforts of Immobile Infantry and the like, discovering the inconsistent Grenade Gank and running over friendlies with jeeps. An orbital bombardment glitch was the closest thing there was to an exciting development in the game.

As a result, FPS players had time to become familiar with the meat grinder that DUST was. Everything was familiar to them. The game takes place on a map. Your tools are your guns and your equipment. Victory is claimed by killing others and taking capture points. If you didn't win, you hopped back into queue to try again. No persistence. No trickery. Just your "mad skills" and SP.

Meanwhile, EVE players sat and waited. They knew what to expect of New Eden. DUST just needed something like Planetary Conquest to facilitate the kind of brutal meta-gameplay they breathe. They speculated and, based on what they knew about Uprising, came up with plans to initiate the naive players that thought all battles would take place on the ground. A few days ago, they finally struck.

Eltra Ardell
As a member of Goonfeet, I am legitimately bad at EVE and DUST 514 alike. I spend my nights lamenting the removal of team-killing. I hope for its return and the addition of "emergent" gameplay. If you need me EVE-side, look for Katrin Ardell.