Crimewatch Ninja “Fix” Causes Collateral Damage

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The whole "being at war - being in the same alliance" should be changed. If you assist someone fighting against someone else, and the enemy is allowed to shoot you, you dont get a suspect flag. If you assist someone who is not allowed to legally shoot you, you get a suspect flag. It should be not importand, why the enemy is allowed to shoot you, be it you are in a war, a suspect, a limited engagement or whatever. The being-in-same-alliance fix would not work for allies in a war, too, in addition to the FW thing shown in the article.
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There are a couple of inaccuracies in this article. First, the suspect for assisting a non-corpmate with a PVP flag and in an active war is part of the original design of Crimewatch, as can be found in the Retribution 1.0 patch notes, "Suspect acts: Assisting a non-corpmate who has a PVP flag and is in active a war." http://community.eveonline.com...When the patch notes were released I raised concern about alliance problems, but the previously mentioned bug in which suspect flags were not gained for assisting non-corpmates who have a PVP flag and are in an active war made it a non-issue. When they fixed the bug, this problem with their design logic came to light, hence my thread.Second, despite what CCP Masterplan says, the "exploit" worked as I described. There was nothing special you had to do, no loops to jump through. You simply assisted your buddy who had a PVP flag and was at war, and you gained nothing but their weapons and pvp flags. It is worth noting that there was a lot of chuckling going on in the merc and griefer communities about how after all the complaining from poorly misinformed null sec entities (particularly TEST) that you couldn't shoot neutral reps that were assisting war targets, CCP finally made it the case.As far as the FW issue, myself and Hans pointed this out as being a problem in the thread prior to it being closed by CCP Eterne. I can pretty much guarantee that CCP's response to our posts regarding FW was to say, "It's mostly in low sec, where they can shoot each other anyways. Not our problem."Finally, as you stated, this system is not nearly robust enough to handle the possible interactions without having a lot of special cases - just like Crimewatch 1.0. Hopefully they will end up switching the flagging so that you don't go suspect if assisting people who are shooting shared targets, but that brings them pretty close to the individual aggression flags we had before, which CCP is apparently terrified of.
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You should expand your idea a little bit more. According to what you said, repairing anyone that is not in your corporation, at war with your corporation, or has a limited engagement flag to you (or if you already have a suspect flag), you would gain a suspect flag. As such any type of group play spanning corporations (say incursions for example) would just be a big turkey shoot as the logistics suddenly get suspect flags. In addition, keep in mind that alliance members cannot legally shoot each other so your fix still falls short of one of the original problems (namely that alliances can be at war too). I hope you meant "assist someone against an enemy that can't legally shoot you" because what you actually said is even more broken than the current state (i.e. in your case you could only rep corp mates, criminals, suspects, war targets, and those that have a limited engagement on you).
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I'm pretty sure he meant assist someone fighting a target who is not allowed to legally shoot you.Also, incursions would not be a turkey shoot because of the big green button that prevents people from assisting people who will cause them to go suspect.
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The Incursion situation is fixed by the fact that incursions don't give you a PVP flag. In the event that someone comes in and a member gains a PVP flag, then it would occur.The big thing is last expansion brought in allies for wars, and now those allies can not support each other directly.
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Oh god sure, I mistyped that badly. "assist someone against an enemy that can't legally shoot you" is what I meant. For example, if your friend attacks a suspect and you rep your firend you become suspect yourself, because the suspect enemy was not allowed to attack you. If you would have engaged the suspect with, for example, drones before, you would not become suspect, only get a limited engagement.
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An "interesting" way of looking at the issue I guess, bit soemwhat biased toward your own interests. Basically what you're saying is "I used to be able to remote rep with a neutral logi with no consequences. CCP declared that to be exploiting so now I get blown up if I remote rep with a neutral alt".While I agree that the situation isnt properly fixed, as a quick patch this is better than no fix at all. You can avoid the whole issue by not using a declared exloit :/ The cure certainly isnt worse than the disease
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The article was simply discussing the changes and showing how alliances and FW are adversely affected by the poor design of Crimewatch.
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What's a suspect flag?
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They ought to give you a limited engagement timer rather than a suspect timer.
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There's also a related issue with logis and suspect flags. Imagine an anti-pirate gang goes into lowsec. To, well, shoot pirates (as in, valid targets that don't incur sec status penalty upon being shot). Now, the biggest thing a common grunt has to worry is the limited engagement flag. In fact, a common grunt can very well fly with his safety switch set to green. Logis, on the other hand, have to rep pepole in limited engagement (which does not really matter to pirates since they don't care about their sec status and would shoot a logi even if it gave them insta -10). Therefore logis become suspects. Now we have a gang of people who do care about their sec. status and a bunch of logis flashing yellow for the next 15 minutes. And every neutral passing by can pop the logi without becoming a valid target himself, so in order to defend their logis, the anti-pirate gang has to become pirates themselves (or sit out the logi suspect flag in a dock).
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The whole point was to make neutral logi FFA in the first place, it didn't go live with retribution, now it has been corrected. Sounds good to me. This new mechanic works fantastically.
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This makes sense and while i don't have the greatest foresight seems it would cause a lot less problems then we have currently

Some Background

Crimewatch 2.0 was released as part of Retribution. The intended purpose was to create a streamlined set of rules and consequences for people in high- and low-sec. For the most part, this process is successful, however the varying degrees of inter player interaction within EVE Online is likely far too complex to allow for a comprehensive, and yet simple, rule set like CCP hoped. CCP is continuing to attempt to close loopholes, but by doing so they continue to add complexity, and possibly further problems. One such example of this has emerged this week.

The Original Problem

As it stood there was an interesting quirk within the Crimewatch 2.0 system. By definition a person providing remote repair support gains the flags, and the current timers associated with them, of the target being assisted. This looks good on paper, but breaks down when the member is shooting a war target. The person has rights to shoot the war target, so no suspect or criminal flag is applied to the aggressor, and the target has every right to shoot back, so no limited engagement either. Now a neutral assistant can help his ally while receiving only a harmless PVP flag and a largely irrelevant weapons flag. The assistant remains untouchable to the opponent without incurring a criminal or suspect flag of his own. People complained on the forums and CCP decided it was an exploit and so wanted to fix it.

The Cure is Worse Than the Disease

The solution that CCP has come up with is to have “Assisting a non-corpmate who has a PVP flag and is in active a war” provide a suspect flag to the assisting member. As we all know from our schoolbooks, suspect flag now allows anyone in New Eden to shoot at you with impunity. The glaring issue with this solution is the word “non-corpmate” and it has been confirmed to not include members of your alliance. So as of this writing (CCP has stated a fix to include alliances is in the works) if you are in an Alliance, at war in highsec, repping your fellow alliance member against a common wartarget, you will gain a suspect flag. Of course if anyone decides to take advantage of that suspect flag, they will gain a limited engagement, and your combat fleet will be able to do nothing without receiving CONCORD intervention. 

To compound the problem, it was not published in the patch notes as normal. In the thread about the discovery, Masterplan writes, “The change was not in the patchnotes because it was related to an exploit which I'm not going to get into a discussion about on here (and isn't quite as the OP states),” however he does not explain how it IS supposed to work if it isn’t how it was described by the other posters. He also says that the fix will come to make it inter-alliance and not just inter-corp. However other scenarios have arisen where this problem will still become an issue.

A Possible Scenario

So let’s assume that they make the rule “Assisting a non-alliance mate who has a PVP flag and is in active a war provides the assisting pilot a suspect flag (15 minute).” We have a further breakdown that may occur in FW that is not covered by these rules. Although Masterplan expresses that our FW wars are not considered “real wars” for this calculation, many have their non-FW wardecs, and the rules don’t seem to distinguish if you are shooting at your active war targets. 

So the Caldari decide to cause some havoc within Gallente fleets. They know that Gallente like to fly in large groups composed of several corps + general militia. So they wardec a large corp like Justified Chaos with a one man corp filled with an alt that no one cares about. The Caldari then engage the Gallente on a gate, shots are fired and reps are put on friendlies. But wait!  Justified Chaos is not the corp flying logi today! So instantly all of the logi go suspect as they rep the primary (chosen to be a JC member of course).

Instantly, a small gang of neutrals land on grid (likely a set of Caldari that have dropped militia), and start attacking the now suspect logi. The logi have aggression flags from repping, the fight is still on so they can’t readily stop, and the combat fleet can not attack without incurring a sec status hit. That sec status hit will also call the gate guns into the action against the Gallente. Meanwhile not all members are prepared to receive a sec hit, many only fight war targets and -5 pirates, and so the fleet descends into confusion, and the Caldari win by exploiting an unusually confusing aspect of our new mechanics. 

This issue will also impact anyone who is teamed up with other corps/alliances within the same war. If you bring in mercs to help you against a high-sec wardec, cross reps will incur suspect flags thus making the logistic support giant targets. Hopefully a remedy is in the works, however this simply points to how much consideration must be made with every change to the way players are and are not allowed to interact in our sandbox.

[name_1]
I have been playing the game *terribly* for right around two years. After a brief time in null, and longer stay in high, I have now entered into Gallente Faction Warfare and somehow landed a job as director of Aideron Robotics. I am still terrible.