Coming in Odyssey: A Fix for Cruise Missiles

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I look forward to the day when the ping goes out for a Raven fleet.
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Still not enough to warrent Cruise based ships versus instand applied dps in PvP.Good for ratters, meh for pvp'rs
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Finally, TEST is getting a doctrine that's effectively "larger drakes".
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Now they just need to hire good pilots to fly them. :P
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Note that there are no comparisons with Gallente ships, with good reason.The CCP hate for the green vessels is embarassing.
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Me and the other nulli fc's were discussing this tonight. Stats we got for a post patch fit:(All stats are all LVL 5 skills, t2 lauchers with 3x BCS. perfect tengu bonus's)EHP: 150-180k ish (I didn't bother trying to math out the changes to bass hitpoints, because it's getting an extra midslot, so it should be able to get close to 170k)DPS: ~~~ 670 with Faction cruise missiles / ~~~ 819 with Fury missilesVolley: 4496 with faction cruise / 5473 with furyMissile speed: Easily faster than 10km/sOverall not that bad if you want to use missles.
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Never!
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I could see Fury-equipped Ravens being used as cheap structure bashers; with that kind of DPS at range, they could de-fang towers pretty efficiently, I think?And a Raven Navy Issue with Fury missiles should be pushing around 925-950 DPS at all V, before implants - nothing to sneeze at and likely to make the mission runners in Empire wet themselves with excitement.
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OH FUCK, ITS HAPPENING, ITS ACTUALLY HAPPENING
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I like these changes... they'll leave missiles with excellent potential, balanced by several different ways to counter them (firewalls, delayed damage). And of course the Cruise CNR will once again reclaim its rightful throne as the King of PvE.Which means that Nightmares and Machs will get cheaper for those who wish to PvP in them.
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My PvE alt's CNR will be pushing out well over 1100 missile DPS, plus another 200 or so from Hammerhead IIs.
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Given the raw sentry power the new Domi will be putting out, I wouldn't complain if I were you.
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I'm assuming this is faction-fit?But yeah, with that, I can only assume Torps will have to get a balance pass as well, otherwise it'll be a return to pre-retribution HML/HAMs - there just wouldn't be enough advantage to justify a torpedo fit.Edit: I've just decided to Excel some numbers, and upping base DPS of torpedos 10%, increasing explosion radius from 450 to 500, increasing explosion velocity from 71 to 110, and upping the DRF from 5 to 7 ends up with torpedos getting a nice damage increase on fat ships (300 sig +) below 200 m/s, and better on REALLY fat ships, but without upping total DPS too much, as an example of what might work for torpedoes?
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While these changes and whatever CCP has in store later might give cruise missile the number to work properly, there still exists the problem of training a x5 weapon skill that only goes on a handful of ships (7 IIRC, raven + typhoon and their navy issues, golem, widow, and navy Scorpion), then having to train another x4 weapon skill for the short range weapon.On the bright side pilots who had spent SP training up missile skills will have a reason to continue past HAMs.
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Remind me the range (discussed in the article), resilience of main weapon system (discussed in the article) and mobility (discussed in the article) of a sentry platform again?Sitting still and pumping obscene DPS at cruiser range, while a good smartbombing run can wipe your weaponry isn't gonna win any main BS doctrine spot anytime soon.Unless we're discussing slowcats/uberboots, but I guess capital ships are a tad above the scope of this article...
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The obvious question, then, is "Will we see Raven (or Typhoon) based fleet doctrines post-Odyssey?" And the answer to that is "maybe."Mynnna - Making the big calls.
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Torps are a Rank 4 skill, not Rank 5.
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Missiles are also vulnerable to countermeasures. Come to that, so are bombers.
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I guess we could get Black Legion now that they finisged up their contract with goons.
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How many cruise missiles you can hold in a Raven cargo? How many sentries in a Domi drone bay? Ah, ok, I thought you were comparing the countermeasures for the two weapon systems...And, again, just for the sake of chitchat: range and mobility on missile platforms? Range and mobility on sentry platforms?The insane DPS on Domintry is hardly useful in modern BS doctrine ships. I also have a Megathron that hits at 230km with Spikes and tanks an AOE DD, a relic of 2008...
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excellent changes.now fix Torps and il be happy.
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Perma MWD Raven fleets would be awesome, nice that someone is actually looking at the possible PVP applications rather than just dismissing this as a OMFGLVL4RAVENOP buff.
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You and your facts, who needs them when one could pull numbers out of their butt :)Grevious factual error has been corrected, but not having a tier 3 BC to fart missiles from makes me sad, I would pay greatly to have 8 large launchers on the naga instead of being a worse talos.
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Missiles still have a huge training bonus over Guns ... to be able to useT2 Cruisemissiles you need to haveCruise missiles VAdvanced cruise missiles Ito have L AutoCannons tec II then you need to haveSmall Projectile guns VSmall Autocannon specialization IVMedium Projectile guns VMedium Autocannon specialization IVLarge Projectile guns VLarge Autocannon specialization ISure its alot faster training up Tec2 Large Artillery then Torps from that position comparing the training time is not even close. you can use T2 Cr in less then a month while for guns it take 2 month.besides isn't CNR and SNI the two most used mission boats in eve highsec?
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Piloting a firewall battleship is one of the few skill intensive things to do in a large fleet. Removing it completely would just help the orbit and f1 mashers even more.
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I'd love to see some MJD torp ravens.
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This is a welcome change - my ridiculously specialized Tengu alt will be useful for PvE again with only a little bit of additional training, not to mention the possibilities of these new cruises on a Typhoon for PvP. . .
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Not going to happen. Not enough Duct Tape on a Raven.
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A bit of the issue is that if you want to train the support skills for missiles, you only get the support skills for missiles. If you train the support skills from projectile turrets, you get the support skills for hybrid turrets and laser turrets as well.
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Änd so, the return of PvP Ravens came
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Best we can do for you is MJD Torp Widows.
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All support skills for missiles apply to every weapon missile system. I don't really see the issue.
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Someone get UDIE on the phone.
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i believe his issue is that if you want to diversify your training, and start on another weapon system, you don't have to train more gun support skills when moving from hybrids to projectiles. But a missile spec'd character seeking to diversify must train up the plethora of gun support skills. The other note is that specialization in a weapon system means being able to use T2 weapons of multiple sizes and ranges, this is something that missile users have to spend more time training up, e.g. 3 more skills to get V in.
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Implying that people want good pilots vs fun people to fly with.
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easy progod, don't share all the stats before you invent the fleet comp.
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fucking popehoist, time to make a thread in PVP/PVE about ravens, I'LL TOTALLY BACK YOU UP. (like i did in the pulsacle thread)
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Man, now we just have to give Atrum an argument to add those to reimbursement hahahahaha
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*Dead MJD Torp Widows
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I would love to see torpedoes being really bad and slow. Kinda almost like an anti-caps weapon for subcaps./edit: "bad" as in "huge dps badass".
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The Talos is amazing.
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That seems to be the ideal use for Rage torpedoes (Because no-one sensible would ever shoot them at a subcap (or at anything ever)).
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Since they mention adding other modules, I think something to provide a "terminal attack maneuver" would be neat as a way to counter firewalling. For anyone who hasn't read the Honor Harrington novels or isn't in the RL blue-water navy, this means that a missile either "pops up" at the last second or starts initially on an oblique vector and then bends in (not unlike a standard tackle approach).This would be a module that someone would have to choose to use instead of (say) a tank module or damage mod.
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"... as their travel time, CCP Rise increased it significantly..." You mean that CCP *decreased* travel time, right? Travel speed is increased, thus decreasing overall travel time, otherwise this would be a nerf. ;)
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Need anti-missile sentry guns?
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Bah! Sentry drones!

The tweaks for large missiles previously hinted at by CCP Rise is here. Correctly identifying the biggest problem with Cruise Missiles as their travel time, CCP Rise increased it significantly and buffed their damage as well. Grid requirements were increased to compensate, and explosion radius was increased slightly as well. Exact changes are as follows:

5% increased rate of fire for all Cruise Missile Launchers
200 added power grid need for all Cruise Missile launchers

4700m/sec base missile velocity for all Cruise Missiles (up from 3750m/sec)
14 second base flight time for all Cruise Missiles (down from 20 seconds)
25% increase in base damage for all Cruise Missiles
10% increase in explosion radius for all Cruise Missiles

Let's elaborate on the current problems.

A Raven with max skills, 3 Ballistic Control System IIs, and faction missiles deals 518 DPS with a theoretical range of 250km. Sounds great on paper; other battleships shooting that far see DPS in the 300-400 range. Unfortunately, a cruise missile traveling 200km also takes nearly 24 seconds to arrive, which is more than enough time to get reps and overheat hardeners to tank the damage, or simply warp out.

On top of that, the meta no longer values super long range engagements, largely thanks to the modern nature of probing. Engaging beyond 150km means you're liable to find your targets at 0km in short order, which is a bad place to be for lightly tanked snipers. As a result, modern fleet action typically occurs at much shorter ranges; often within the range of short range ammo. At those ranges, a Cruise Raven's DPS is lacking - worse off than even the low 540 DPS of a 425mm Railgun fit Rokh, with none of a Rokh's advantages to compensate. Compare that damage to a Maelstrom (600 DPS) or an Abaddon with Scorch (670 DPS), and it's even worse.

These changes do an excellent job of changing that. The Raven used as an example above will deal 682 DPS, with a maximum range of 222km. The alpha damage is now 4496 damage, well short of artillery but higher than pulse lasers or railguns. The downsides are the loss of the last 30km of range, an increase to explosion radius (up to 247.5m at max skills with normal missiles), and an extra 200 grid per launcher. No one's going to miss the last 30km of range, the explosion radius is still low enough for normal missiles to deal full damage to battleships and combat battlecruisers (and is more than compensated for against attack battlecruisers and smaller ships by the damage increase), and no cruise missile armed ship is going to have issues with fitting with or without the increase.

Overall, it's an excellent tradeoff. Cruise missile velocity is now about 10% higher than old Heavy Missile speeds, so longer range (100-150km) engagements are less painful and short range fights feature acceptably low flight times. Far more significant, though, is the damage increase. 680 DPS exceeds any other current fleet battleship aside from an Abaddon with Multifrequency, and even that is beat if the Raven swaps to Fury missiles for a whopping 830 DPS.

The obvious question, then, is "Will we see Raven (or Typhoon) based fleet doctrines post-Odyssey?" And the answer to that is "maybe." Regarding the missiles themselves, the ability to match or exceed other doctrines for DPS (and beat anything but artillery for alpha to boot) is a point in their favor. Whether the ships will be viable is another matter. The Raven has pretty good mobility, can get close to the EHP of a Rokh or Maelstrom with the 7th mid open for utility - or top either of them by using it for tank - and gets the fastest missiles in the game. It ought to be okay.

I'm not so sure about the Typhoon, though. It's being reclassified as an Attack battleship, so it's a lightweight on tanking, coming in at a mere 150k EHP with bonuses. Current armor battleship doctrines all feature closer to 225k EHP. On the other hand, it's fairly mobile for an armor ship, and it's possible that the explosion velocity bonus could be combined with precision missiles to give it a niche role at the very least.

Unfortunately for the rise of missile based doctrines, the "firewall" tactic is still possible. For those unaware, the tactic involves placing a few smartbombing ships at the perimeter of your fleet, positioned between your fleet and your attackers. If the smartbombs are staggered correctly, you get a near-constant field of AOE which, owing to the almost non-existent EHP of missiles (a mere 70 structure), eliminates the majority of incoming fire. Fortunately, that tactic is awfully easy to nerf if CCP decides to do so. Add resists or more hitpoints to missiles until it's more difficult to firewall, or just slap 99.9% resists onto all missiles if the intent is to remove it entirely.

There is no indication that changes to Torpedoes are planned, although that could be a simple matter of "we'll post the thread tomorrow." However, these are not definitive changes. Per CCP Rise, "Following Odyssey, we hope to do more work to improve the missile systems in EVE by potentially adding new modules and/or interactions."

Seven year veteran & economics guru of EVE Online as well as CSM 8 representative. On the side I play PS2, WOT and Hearthstone.