CCP Cache Scraping Ruling: EveMon Now Illegal?

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Calm your tits, everyone.
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I am the danger
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CCP: Two steps forward, one step back. Since 2003
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It reminded me of Vincent in Pulp Fiction explaining hash in Amsterdam. I'm paraphrasing here but it went something like "Breaks down like this, okay: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, and if you're the proprietor of a hash bar, it's legal to sell it. It's illegal to carry it, but that doesn't really matter 'cause, get a load of this, all right; if you get stopped by the cops in Iceland, they'll have to ban 50% of the player base" . Ok . I might have altered that more than a little bit.
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While I don't like the open ended enforceability of this rule, it still doesn't change the fact that the EULA wasn't changed. The purpose of the dev blog was to address the sudden ban of the 2300+ accounts using the autopilot to 0 hack and explain that it's always been illegal, other things probably are too, and you'll get banned when they develop the tools to catch you.EVEMon isn't suddenly going to get you banned. Saying so is simply being sensational.
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This is the second time where I've found myself looking at the headline and shaking my head.
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Headlines that end with '?' are always misleading. Always have been, always will be.
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This website is slouching towards poop.
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While I take some consolation that CCP won't simply ban people using common cache scraping software like EveMon, they really need to get their message clearer. As a veteran player, it bothers me when I'm told that what I'm doing is officially "against the rules" and potentially warrants a permanent ban. I have years of time and resources invested in this game, and I'd hate to lose them all on a technicality.To be quite frank, I do not use any "questionable" software. Eft, Pyfa, EveMon, etc. are well known to CCP, and I don't fear losing my account because I regularly utilize these software. However, I find CCP's stance unacceptable. To use an analogy: Imagine a road with a 35 mph speed limit. Everyone might drive 45 mph on it, and the police may generally only ticket people traveling at 50+ mph, but on a bad day, any police officer can pull you over and ticket you anytime you exceed the 35 mph speed limit. When the ticket is a 30 day suspension of, or potentially even a permanent suspension of your driver's licence, an officer having a bad day can really fuck up your life!!! And let's be frank, Screeg's isn't known for his calm demeanor!
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Is endersfinalend a Neo-Nazi homosexual?Yeah, you're probably right.
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Is Fletch23 a botter RMT crime lord???I'm just asking questions man.
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Misleading for total retards, maybe
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He's also never provided proof that he isn't a serial murderer of hookers.
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So, If I used eve-mon to check my mail and my training queue, I am risking a ban?Or are they just going to give me a boot.ini file?
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Purely speculation but perhaps CCP is working on "official" out of game tools and this is a warning shot that "unofficial" out of game tools will be frowned upon after "official" OOG tools release.
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mlyp
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Sreegs doesn't work at CCP anymore.
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It's the market cache scraper in evemon that is causing the ~confusion~
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This is exactly what I was thinking. Seeing that CCP is moving one of their most experienced development leaders to their "mobile" division, Im betting that somewhere down the road there will be CCP released mobile apps that do the same thing the 3rd party tools referenced here do. But Im betting you will have to buy the tools or pay extra sub fees to use those tools. What they could be doing here is preparing us for the day when they release these tools for $ and ban hammer anyone who uses the non-CCP tools.
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This article is a moot point.From the EULA:"CCP may, in its sole discretion, cease to provide any or all of the services offered in connection with EVE (including access to the System and any or all features or components of the Game), terminate the EULA, close all Accounts and cancel all of the rights granted to you under the EULA"That basically says: We can drop the banhammer and dispense some indiscriminate justice whenever we feel like it. Meaning they can ban you for undocking in Jita, or no reason at all.
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What has been left particularly vague in all this barking and yelping that's been going on about this is how CCP would ever even know you have actually been cache scraping at all. I'm not a developer, and I have a fairly limited understanding of how computers and operating systems work. As far as I'm aware, I don't think it's possible for CCP to just monitor a file for read access by other programs. That information might exist in the operating system, but that doesn't mean it's possible for CCP to access it.Even if we were to assume that they could get that information, in order for anybody at CCP to even know that you're using software to access the cache files, they'd need to either have a program that sits there, all day long, watching active process for one that tries to access the files in the cache. Alternatively, they'd need to have a program that sits on your computer and all day long looks for known targets being installed and active.That means that in order for CCP to ban anybody on the basis of using EVEmon, or EVE-central's market tool, or whatever, they would need to build software that watches every aspect of your computer, all day long, waiting for that program to show itself AND be configured to be accessing the cache (especially in EVEmon's case).The reality is that this was a poorly worded interpretation of a poorly worded EULA that is trying to simultaneously prohibit some activity and allow other, similar activity based entirely on user intentions. Once again, they have gotten ahead of themselves, and have tried to enact a change without preparing for what people will need to work with the changes.To have done this correctly, CCP should have said nothing about cache scraping at all for the time being, and created functioning APIs for the things that people are currently pulling out of the cache. Then, once all the tools were in place, developers had been informed of the new APIs, and had been given an opportunity to implement them (plus, and this is a crazy idea I know, maybe made sure that they work correctly), CCP could issue their statement damning cache scraping as a EULA violating action. Not that I think they could enforce it still, for the reasons I went on about above.
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This is what Wizards did with Magic The Gathering. Their legal team went around and threatened third-party mobile application developers for copyright infringement- and created a TON of animosity in their playerbase.Let's hope Jon Lander realizes that CCP won't withstand the riot that will result if they tell EVE-addicted code monkeys that they can't use their homemade custom tools because they have to purchase worse tools built and sanctioned by CCP.That will most definitely be the end of EVE.
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"Our detection methods work on the principle of looking for known signatures of these malicious programs that enable this. We do not at this time extend beyond our own process."Per above, CCP only needs to check if a process (e.g. evemon.exe) is running when the client launches. The dev statement above leaves wiggle room for them to do this even though, as he states, it seems they currently don't.
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I wouldn't worry about it that much. Unifex knows what he's doing, I'd expect mobile PI or something along those lines out of the mobile division, not this. I doubt they'd try to monetize it that way anyways.
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Reading is hard. From the dev blog:"From our perspective, it makes no sense to ban people for the use of programs that don’t give them an in-game benefit in the same way that bots and other modifications to the game do."So simply using EveMon does not give you an in-game advantage. The only part that "might" do so is the market tool of EveMon. But clearly CCP is aiming for fully automated scripts like the example where you put AP on and still land at zero on gates. Just because solodrakban toke the whole thing out of context and most likely left out some major things on purpose, doesn't make it true.Read every sentence of the dev blog and show me where it says it is aiming at tools as EFT, EveMon, EVEHQ or GoonMetrics.Allthough the latter one is kinda on the edge really. You are pulling market data through a script so you can jew better and more. Yes having to shift through the market data manually is boring and retarded with the current system. But CCP has a point. If they are going to allow that kind of data scraping, where do they draw the line in a way that is manageable and workable?"We only care about the instances where people are messing with our process for the purposes of cheating, and running multiple clients at the same time is not in violation of our EULA in and of itself unless it involves trial accounts."So once again, if you are actively and willingly manipulating the game through 3rd party software to gain an actual in-game benefit or as we call it, cheating, you get banned. If you simply multibox 3 accounts while just mining, ccp gives no fucks.Something with sheeps being herded....
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CCP giving it's players the finger. Summer of Rage repeat 2013?
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OP has got his tin-hat on ... hip hip hip hooray ...!
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This is truly silly.No one is getting banned for using EveMon, even if you don't disable the market data component.CCP can already ban anyone for ANY reason, including NO REASON at all. It's in the EULA. It's in the EULA of every MMO and online multiplayer game. They don't need to get you for using EveMon. CCP could every month ban 10 totally random accounts, and it would be perfectly within their rights. It would be STUPID, which is the whole point here.Is the cache scraping rule vague? No more vague than having the right to ban your account for any reason.If you're not circumventing gameplay rules or automating tasks in the client, you are simply playing the game. Autopilot to 0 was obviously circumventing the travel gameplay rule; if you're manually piloting your ship at your keyboard, you can warp to 0, if you're autopiloting, you cannot. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Anyone really believe CCP will ban thousands, or even just hundreds, of people, simply for using EveMon?Tinfoilhatting that CCP will use EveMon to ban people they don't like, is just tinfoilhatting. They can already ban you, and don't need a reason, or even have to tell you or anyone else about it.
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Talk about sensational. A) I had nothing to do with this blog as I don't work there any more. B) I've never once actioned on an account in anger. In addition this clarification does nothing to increase the risk of that since the TOS already gives CCP the right to ban you for whatever they like with no recourse.
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A little heavy handed in the propoganda-ness... but right on target.It's bad enough that 3rd party devs have to work in EULA gray areas (blessed by executives no longer at CCP), now the area has become darker gray. Nothing like the threats of "we may... or may not... ban you... whatever".The frustration is compounded by the languishing/buggy API that, frankly, is not good enough. Plus, don't forget the CREST/API licensing debacle. CCP needs to get its head on straight about the relationship it expects from 3rd party devs.
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Posting before revising is always a bad idea
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I don't get it. Why so upset? CCP admits that the EULA is not up to the task. They say they will re-write it. Using scraping along with other activities that they DO consider is against the spirit of the EULA is bannable. I don't see the fuzz. At all.
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CREST is on the way, and I expect it to fix this issue by drawing clear lines for what is possible to do with a third party software.
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I'm not so sure about your last statement. Frankly, if CCP can ban anyone without any justification then I don't see the point in specifying what constitutes a violation of the EULA. Just say you will ban whoever you decide is cheating and that's it.Having an excuse to ban anyone saves a lot of PR effort when the proverbial shit hits the fan. I'm not saying with this that CCP is out there to get us, but there surely are much better ways to fight bots than putting a gun on everyone's head and whispering to our ears "Don't worry, if your motives are pure I won't pull the trigger".
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"This is illegal, but we won't prosecute you for it unless we aren't happy with something else you've done" should be a giant red flag for most Eve players who tend to be of the "I wonder if I can do this..." mindset.
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Because until the devblog, cache-scraping was OK. Now it's not OK, but they say they'll probably make it OK later this year.What the fuck was the point of even mentioning it in the devblog then?
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Well, if I am correct there is like one candidate for the CSM, who has really any expertise, however it is quite unlikely that he gets in because he isn't well know enough this Artctura
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Read the TOS you agreed to.
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I suspect many will be surprised by just how well Art does in this election. And many others won't!
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So you say you bought 1000 Votes? ^^I hope he will help to push API development with CCP, because well if you have ever worked with the API you wished you wouldn't.
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Wait wait... so CCP Sreegs was Darius Johnson? Ahahahahaahaha
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Pretty obvious whats happening, Unifex wants to destroy all competition for his new mobile money assault.
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I'm not disputing CCP's ability to ban at will. I'm disputing your conclusion that having another excuse to do so won't increase the risk of actually being banned.
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^^^ I like this statement, and anyone who read that devblog otherwise, needs to get out of their basement.
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Why am i reminded of that part in 1984. We have always been at war with eastasia.
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I appreciate much of the work done to fight botters, and I'm not accusing CCP of historically banning accounts out of anger... I am pointing out that the player base has done plenty to piss off very powerful CCP employees, and it's entirely plausible that "minor infractions" could potentially be used to attack unpleasant but mostly rule-following subscribers.
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Not sure why most arguments include EVEMon which doesn't need the game cache really. Let's talk about those really unfair market tools which give a huge advantage over common game play.
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APIs and the information they provide are separate from the client's cache.
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I see your website is doing a much better job. Congrats on the top notch content you're providing the community.
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A red flag for what? Illogic? I can buy that it is illogical and perhaps even a bit clumsily formulated a devblog. But personally I see it as making stuff clear Evemon and such stuff *IS* OK, but autopilot->0, scraping and using it for bot-changing orders is not.I see it as weather I previously could have wondered why Evemon was allowed (if I ever read the EULA) I would now realize that it does not break the spirit of the EULA and that CCP will correct the EULA wording later on.I se no reason for conspiracy theories at this point.
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I think its more to do with eve mentat and E uni`s john the bot .Eve mentat reads the cache and can give you a reccomended price, you then could copy / paste that into game to automate market price inputs. John exploited this and keldumm defended him (saying he was using a legal 3rd party tool)Sreegs said at the time he was gonna ban cache scraping. This is why you don`t talk back to Sreegs,.They are looking for cache scraping-automated behaviour not Eve mon type behaviour.
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Or you could have saved a whole bunch of paragraphs by simply admitting you don't really understand the issue.
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The "clarification" dev blog released presumably in response to this article:http://community.eveonline.com...Confirming CCP is literally and explicitly stating client modification and multiboxing are okay so "long as [you] don't do bad things."To wit: "We know bad things when we see it, and that's as precise as we're willing to be at the moment."If only there was a space-king by night, lawyer-by-day around to suggest clearer, more-objective language for CCP to use :D
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I can't have a discussion with paranoid delusions
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Stillman did a Greyscale!
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Oh yes, CCP diplomacy at its best. Please do not feel the need to reply if you don't know what to say, doesn't really bring much to the conversation.
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Which would never be applicable against European customer protection laws, which are applicable for all EU based players due to the agreement between Iceland and the EU.
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Facts? Your denial of reality and dismissal of everyone else's point of view as irrelevant or paranoid are the only facts shown here, Doctor Sbaitso. The world does not spin around you.I'm done wasting my time. Good riddance.
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Dont cheat ot use bts and ou have nothing to worry about - many thanks for the botters / cheaters tears CCP, sure there will be buketloads more XD
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you!

Yesterday, CCP Stillman released a curious new dev blog. In it contained the troubling news that cache scraping - something programs like Eve-Central, EveMon, and many other programs do - is now not only against the EULA, but 'has always been' against it.

Summary:

  • Cache scraping is against the EULA, and always has been. No one doing it before April 15th will be punished.
  • "Non-cheating" use of cache scraping will not be punished, or it might!
  • Despite the outrage of the playerbase, CCP will not address the issue until the next EULA revamp.

Immediately there was backlash from the community, as seen in the devblog comment thread.

Solo Drakban, IT administrator of Goonswarm Federation, made the following comment to GSF on this devblog:

CCP is being pants-on-head retarded again.  Not just pants on head retarded, no, this time they found some nylon pants, lit those pants on fire, then put the pants on their head, ran around bouncing off of walls a few times until the nylon melted onto their skull, then spent a bit picking the nylon out of their flesh and then later wondering where their face went, forgetting about the fire pants they placed on their head.  Glue may also have been consumed, paint chips snacked on, and probably some gas huffed.   Read the dev blog here and catch up on the thread here (pmchem and Entity really get into it around page 6) and if you disagree with CCP let them know.

If you are wondering what the big deal really is, basically CCP has declared the majority of it's userbase to be in violation of the EULA if you dare use such tools of cheating like EVEMon, EVE-HQ, eve-marketdata-relay or GoonMetrics.  Except they are skirting around that with a knudge and a wink by saying 'if all you are doing is cache scraping, you have nothing to worry about, as it is not a priority for us to enforce at the moment'.  So, the use of EVEMon is currently a perma-bannable offense under the EULA, but CCP won't ban you for it, unless you do something they don't like, at which point they declare that you're using an illegal tool and ban you while pretending that thousands of other players aren't exactly guilty of the same thing.  IngSoc has got nothing on CCP when it comes to doublethink apparently, especially since in the past they have expressly stated that cache scraping is OK.  Once again a perfect example of CCP not knowing it's ass from it's elbow.

To quote Entity, a EVE-famous third-party dev and developer of one of the most popular tools for extracting cache data (who also received an explicit OK from CCP back when he started developing it): "To keep with the car analogy, what CCP just said is "Driving a car is now illegal, but if you behave, we probably won't take action if you are driving one"."

Also, this is not a call for a threadnaught or anything like that.  This is a PSA to make you aware that you as a player of EVE are probably now in violation of CCP's EULA if you use any number of popular third-party EVE tools.  You at risk of being banned at their whim for doing something that they have expressly OK'd in the past.  I am encouraging you to read the blog and the opinions in the thread and, only if you want to, contribute to the thread in an intelligent and meaningful way and while this may seem like asking a lot from goons, I do know that we are capable of it with a little effort.

In response to the furor, CCP Peligro posted this update:

Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.

After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.

To describe this devblog as ham-handed and unnecessary leaves us straining for better adjectives; what is striking is that the 'point' of the blog was to call out tools that most of the playerbase uses today, while simultaneously backpedaling and saying that there will not be any enforcement against such tools. I'm not sure who reviewed and gave CCP Stillman the go-ahead to publish such a PR disaster of a blog, but dev blogs do not give CCP a license to rewrite history at a stroke and suggest that programs which everyone has been using for ages with explicit CCP approval have 'always been' against the EULA. 

Kcolor, primary cap FC of the CFC. @KcolorCFC Did I interest you in EVE? http://tinyurl.com/cff4nrd Did I interest you in LoL? http://tinyurl.com/b9ezx8h