Tiericide: A Question of Priorities

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The changes to subcaps ships by the rebalancing program are generally positive and were due regardless of the discussing about supercaps. However, I look in awe (in a negative way) when I see examples of battlefields with dozens of supercaps and more in general their proliferation numbers. Did CCP ever had this in mind when they were introduced? I hardly doubt it. Is it positive to the game that we have these numbers? I doubt that as well.Corporate governance and corporate effiency combined with the optimized use of the game's economic recources have become so advanced that their proliferation has gone through the roof.I dont have anwers how to fix this but I have some thoughts for discussion* I think the supercap's utitlity isnt an issue, it's their proliferation, I wouldnt mind if there were max 20/30 titans in the universe instead of 300 (or so)* Their cost / investment doesnt form a hurdle in the bigger picture, altering this probably wont reduce the proliferation that much* Would the game be better off without supercaps?
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No, YOU are wrong. The most broken should be fixed first, and as supers are LESS USEFUL and LESS FUN than any other ship in the game, they deserve fixing. Blobs are out of control, and it's because supercaps had their blob counter roll removed.
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I agree that Tiericide is the best thing to happen to EVE in a long time. I really have to respect how CCP has turned themselves around after the Incarna debacle (though I don't want them to drop what they had planned with that either).Regarding Tiericide, you are certainly correct about starting from the bottom up, the support frigates/cruisers are the single best interation, allowing a path to logistics for people, rather than telling them to train for 2 months. One of the single biggest excuses I hear from pilots regarding logistics is "Well, I don't have logi 5 yet." Tiericide nullifies this argument, and now pilots have to work hard justifying why they can't bring a repper ship (it has since turned to "Well, I can't use remote repairs." to which you can reasonably call them fail.For Supers/Capitals, honestly, I think those work as they should, depending of course, on what CCP would actually plan on doing with them. Carriers work well, and triage is useful. Dreads work well also when properly configured. Super Carriers are mostly fine, but may need a slight buff or the ability to perform additional roles. Titans are also mostly fine, useful for punting fleets/frieghters, and their weapons are also nicely effective. Other than the Super Carrier being a little mediocre for such an expensive asset (i.e. not having a "Wow!" feature that makes them unique [Fighter-Bombers don't count in my opinion]), I really don't see what exactly people would want to do with Capitals/Supers, they are already "Tiericided", they each have a unique (except for the Super Carrier) role that they fill.
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Nobody complains about frigate proliferation, or battleship proliferation. It's not an issue. The issue is that none of them ever die, and that's because they are insanely risky to use, are not fun to fly and have no defences, so what do you expect will happen? We would all like to see the supercap numbers go down, but it's only going to happen by making it cheaper to lose a super (e.g. more insurance) or more beneficial to fly one.
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What you call "blobs", we call "friends". Perhaps you'd have more "friends" if you didn't think supercaps were an appropriate gating mechanic to subcap warfare.
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Just give your supers to -A-, they love losing supers.
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What is this article about?I got the weird feeling when reading it it was written before the tiericide, you know it's already happened right? You know there is no longer a debate about where to start because it's happening now?Also what are you saying about Solo, some people say it doesn't exist, others are doing it? Could that be the topic of a whole article or maybe series of articles from Solo PVPers, not a half page observation?Surely either it's about Solo, or tiericide, or the link between them. You seem to have mentioned all of them without really saying anything.Maybe this article could have been "how tiericide affects solo, new fits", or "solo's not dead, here's how to do it" or "tiericide, what will happen when they get to the supercaps". At the moment I don't really get it.
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A ship that does near-Moros dps (even if bumped on jump-in), can't be tackled by conventional means, can use capital remote repairs/transfers, can break the locks of everything nearby, can cloak, can poop out subcaps from its CHA, etc. etc. is a pretty damn good deal for only 4-4.5x the cost of a well-fit Moros.Not sure SCs need additional roles. Are you suggesting that they should be able to triage as well?
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If you think a Titan costs 70B you're pretty dumb.. Mineral cost alone is 78b these days add bpc cost build cost shipping cost time you're at 90b if you build them yourself. Fitting, Implants bang another 12b the character itself be it that you trained it up or brought it another 20-30b.. that is a total investment of 132b. And anyone going around saying its not significant probably has now clue how much that is if you have to pay for it without any alliance subsidies.
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Says the guy that jumped into his super and found out he wasn't the god he wanted to be.
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I always thing the easier way would be to add some triage type modules, but not as a bonus, as a nerf. As for dread, super (carrier and titans) would need to activate a triage type module to be able to dps as today, the goal being to slow them down, and make it easier to tackle them.A similar thing could be done about jumping ; activating jump drive on a supercap would make it unable to do it again for 2-10mn, making it pretty hard for them to cross the entire universe quickly.
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A moros costs 7b+? Didn't know that, the price must have spiked considering supercarriers cost around 30b these days and 4 moros is one supercarrier.Also, can cloak isn't really an advantage considering every ship can do it.
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I think supercaps are pretty optimal right now. People use them to grind structures and kill caps. Regular capitals are no longer so outclassed they aren't used (like post-dominion). You need to control the field with subcaps to field supers safely.Pretty damn well balanced, for Eve.In fact, due to CCP's terrible track record at fixes and balancing, I'm hesitant about them even touching something that currently works well enough. This is not to say they couldn't use some balancing and role expansion, but CCP is so likely to fuck it up that I'd prefer they just left it as is until CCP establish a track record of not being terrible.
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"You don’t build a building from the roof. You need the foundation."As a civil engineer, you design structures from the roof down (Just a bit of irony, not criticism).
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sell your titan now. it may never be worth more.
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Theres a bit of a difference in building and design bub...
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Try over a thousand titans.I forget the exact numbers, bit its over 4k supercaps, over a thousand of which are titans.
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Dreadnoughts are completely outclassed.Why bring in an 8000 DPS revelation or moros thats usless if bumped, when you can bring in an 8000-10000 DPS supercarrier that can set drones on something from 180km, tanks more, and can get out in 30seconds rather than when its 5 minute siege cycle ends.
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You dont lose the character when the titan dies, so that doesn't really count imo.If your titan dies, you wake up in a new clone and get a new one from your alliance's moon goo (which is the real problem, supercap proliferation which is funded by moon goo)
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*Edit* and I honestly feel that the game would be better off without supers, we have Carriers for logistics, Dreadnoughts for DPS.They have no role, (besides bridging titans) and that's why they need to go.No role for them, no need for them.
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You apparently haven't been to the eve forums, with all the whiners demanding "supers should be balanced first" and "supers are breaking the game" and so on. Go read there, then come back - you'll understand what the article is about at that point.
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"Dreadnoughts are completely outclassed."No.A Moros does way more than 8000 DPS (assuming top skills and a good fit you get 14000 DPS at least), it can shoot an active POS, it can be insured to soften the possible loss, and the DPS of the Supercarrier can easily be brought to zero with judicious use of support and smartbombs and POS Guns. Supercarriers have more EHP (which doesn't help its drones) and better mobility, but that's about it as far as advantages go. And seeing the Supercarriers are mostly used to shoot stuff that moves slowly or not at all, the mobility advantage is pretty damn useless.
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I like this--I don't think there's a discrepancy here. I'd gander you build a building from the roof down so you begin the design process around the client's requested parameters (x height, y rooms, z utility). That seems similar to designing ship and skillpoint progression around subscribers' needs (x combat and industry roles, y progression of bonuses over time, z risk/reward/skillpoint ratios as pilots mature) and not necessarily around the current metagame's take on ship roles and warfare. Starting with broad goals vs. starting with nitpicky details. I'm guessing that foundation design includes a lot of choices about utilities and other considerations you don't have details on until the rest of the building is at least sketched out, ja? Same process, just other cardinal direction around.If you set the design boundaries and overall shape of the project right -- whether a building or a game rebalancing -- I bet it's harder to loose touch with the original, most important goals of the project as progressively finer details are rendered.
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Exactly right. A few weeks ago, an article was published in TheMittani.com describing, in the author's opinion, why Tiericide should start with Supercapitals and work down from there. A central focus of the article was the close ties between supercaps and sov grinding; everyone probably agrees that sov needs a rework, so why not rebalance Supers (again) first?The main argument seems to be on whether you lock-in a steady ehp/dps progression from frigates and work up from there or decide on sov structure ehp/defence and work down from the top.
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I disagree and i don't fly one, but i think they should get broader roles for example it should be benefical for the subcap pilots to fly with a supercap.Example the Super Carrier could hold a advanced Clonebay and a shipBay so if you die you spawn in your ship in its hull ready to enter the fray again.That whould make having a SuperCarrier in the fight worth it. and give the SC a strategic role.If they the give the titan the ability to expand its shield in say 10km radius so ships can duck in and ouf of the shields thus protecting the weaker ships with its shileds. (sure they have to be more balanced with Shield/armour titans) It would make the titan more Tactical as a 10Km "Safe" bubble in the middle of the combat will change the game.
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You sir, are an idiot. Hics and/or Dics bubble the Super/Titan (he is aggressed) they can't "jump out", and they really aren't all that BLINDINGLY FAST at 100 meters/sec.Oh and yeah, about that "jump limiting thing", it's called the capacitor and its recharge rate being the "limiting" factor, since caps have to have atleast 75% cap to be able to activate the jump-drive. Problem is, there are these modules and implants that give extra cap or reduce recharge time/increase recharge rate, oh and lets not forget those energy tranfer thingy's that allow caps to recharge each other that much FASTER. Know how to counter that? Balghorn and/or PLENTY of neuts.Maybe you should actually learn to fly/fight capitals, before you make random dumbass suggestions on how to gimp them.
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You realize that the super can do his job and leave before the dictors are here right ?You realize than when jumping out there's no way he'll jump on a system full of red and so the time for the archons to remote his capa have no importance ?I already know how to fight capital, I'm only proposing something to make them easier to kill and harder to move around. I never talked about the conventional speed of a super, nor about the time he'll need to move from his initial spot.But maybe you can't read ?
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"supercaps had their blob counter roll removed" - You sound as if you want the grid wide AoE Doomsday back. You sir, are an idiot.
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Seriously, hard to kill? Are you playing Eve or some other game?For real man, I've seen Supers die in 5 minutes, and Titans go down in about 10 minutes (damn things were dead before I could even logg in to go whore the mail), all before their aggression timer runs out at 15 minutes (I did mention they can't jump OUT when they are aggressed, or do you not understand aggression mechanics). Oh, and both the Super and Titan that died, were killed by battleships no less, so they are NOT all that hard to kill.Yes, it does take some work to catch them and kill them, but what the hell do you want, Super/Titan pilots to hand you a 40-100 billion loss mail on a silver platter?Get real dude, not gonna happen, because that would only cause Super/Titans to be used less than they are now, or worse, never be used at all. If you're not willing to "put in the work" to catch and kill them, you don't deserve to be on the kill mail.And as if my point needed proof, here you go http://themittani.com/news/rnk... !

“Solo PvP is dead!” This cry has been uttered by many a pilot in the last few years. In the age of the blob and the ECM drone, lone wolf combat has been withering on the vine - or so we are told. Jump into the Bringing Solo Back channel and you will find a couple of hundred people who act very differently.

Yes, there are plenty of blobs. Yes, those blobs love ECM drones. However, sit in this channel for any length of time and you'll find a dedicated group of people talking about fits for solo work, linking kills, and generally having a laugh. Out of game, go to the My Eve forum, and you’ll find many videos (from famous personalities like Aldap, Kovorix and Prometheus Exenthal, to name a few) showing off great solo skill.

So why is this channel called Bringing Solo Back? This bemuses me - mostly because I don’t think solo has ever gone away, only changed.

Now, on to something completely different. (Humour me for a moment.)

Supercaps

Supercaps are perhaps the most controversial warships in the game. Condemned as too powerful, game wrecking, "win everything" ships, when you mention anything about supercap balancing on any EVE-related forum, the ensuing shitstorm can only be related to something out of the Bible. Which leads me to this: while I agree something needs to be done about supercapitals, I don’t think they need to be dealt with right now.

This may seem like a very strange statement, but looking at the player base this should make more sense. Now, raise your hand if:

1) You’ve ever flown a super cap
2) You’ve ever flown a frigate

I would bet my meagre wallet that more people raised their hand for the second question than the first.

In 0.0 sov wars, nearly all of the fights will be between ships of battleship size and smaller. Where are the supers? They're either shooting structures, bridging subcapital fleets, or moving assets around. Very rarely are they used in combat, super vs. super, and when they are, the fight becomes known across EVE (even when none of the supers end up destroyed).

The current use of super caps is the threat of super caps. They are the nuclear deterrent of EVE. This takes me back to my original point. Why do you start from the top down? Why not fix the most used ships in EVE and then fix the rest.?

This is what I think people miss when they talk about how Tiercide should be done from the "top down." You don’t build a building from the roof. You need the foundation.

Bringing Solo Back (up to scratch)

Tiercide is doing this. Because we now have rebalanced frigates and cruisers which are more suited for PvP at a reasonable price, solo PVP has the potential for renewed interest and growth. This should help generate more solo content, which in turn will make people want to solo PvP, which generates more solo content... you get the picture.

Furthermore, there are new options to choose from for larger gang combat, with the potential for the 'tiericided' ships to earn a place in the blob. This could divesify nullsec, which has been dominated by Maelstrom and Drake fleets for ages!

For this reason, I am a huge fan of CCP Fozzie rebalancing smaller ships first. I think he has hit the nail right on the head, as the new structure is good for all players.

1) We now have access to a variety of cheap, fun ships to PVP with. The low skill requirements mean that new players can be effective quickly.

2) Alliances can see how CCP is approaching the problem, so when the rebalancing team moves to battleships and capitals, there won’t be too much panic. Fozzie and his gang have established the reputation necessary to tackle the most critical issues without unjustified drama or outrage from the players.

This means we all get the benefit now, while a person who invested 70b into a Titan isn’t surprised by any of the changes to his massive investment. So, this is my message to everyone who says that we should fix supers first: you’re wrong.

All in all, the greater rebalancing initiative has been great for everyone. From the solo PvPer running around lowsec looking for pirates to kill, to frontline 0.0 pilots attempting to kill another large fleet - from old vets to new bros - Tiercide is one of the best things that has happened to EVE in a long time.

Hi, My name is Targie. I've done everything from High-sec wars, to Low sec Pirating; from Wormholes to 0.0 wars. I'm currently in TEST alliance, where I annoy my corp. mates with bad stories. Follow me on twitter . @TargieMcRed for article updates.