Star Citizen's "Grey Market"

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All this for a game that has not been released or coded into playable existence. Not that I want it to flop, but it all seems to be a buildup to disappointment.
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Well, I find this rather shocking.
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wow.. this is shocking to say the least. but then again, the game itself is going to be garbage. a complex single player experience where you can meet your friends online. the instancing system is straight out of the horrors that is star trek online
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I think originally the person who posted about the waitlist got downvoted a bunch, too. There are a lot of people who want to keep any 'competition' out and their 'customer knowledge' to a minimum. The free market!
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So RMT is legal in Star Citizen? Sounds like great fun...
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For all the joking I've seen about the game being vaporware, Chris Roberts has more or less been making the same game over and over for decades. His current team seems lean and mean, and pretty open about their processes so far.
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Not quite, hence the "Grey Market" in the article title.
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This game is gonna end up as an utter failure. The way they keep making bank on people is screaming scam more then anything. Sorry but these pricing and for virtual items are you shitting me? For a game that does not even exist yet. I feel sorry for all these nerds handing their money to Chris Roberts like little cash cows. What was the last really good game Chris Roberts made? Freelancer? NOP, not even remotely matched what he promised. The last 2 Wing-Commander's before that weren't much better. Yet people hand him money like no tomorrow.. really beyond me. They have enough money to make 3 AAA games already.
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There has not been a single Chris Roberts game since Wing Commander 2 that has not been a disappointment and I doubt he will break that track record with Star Citizens.
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In what world does the development of three AAA games cost ~24 million?
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Cool article, I was reading the thread and people were talking about laundering and melting down ships and I had no idea what the fuck
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Well, we have the hangar module released, which has a handful of ships to look at and the dogfighting module is supposed to be out in december. That should give a decent look, if that ends up fun I'll probably grab a ship. A 40 dollar one though I'm not a madman
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I just feel they are doing a poor job of managing expectations. At this point, no matter how good it is, it is likely to see a LOT of bitching and moaning.
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apparently not the world where GTA5 cost $250m
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I agree with Baki Yuku about something....I'm not sure how to feel about this.
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There are broad portions of the fanbase who expect it to be Second Life in Space, and also people who want it to be EVE 2.0: Now with Flight Sticks. No one's going to be happy.
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It is a free market, I don't do it or use it but when I surf the web I see a whole lot of marketing (this page even) that makes promises to other people who pay for that space about rarity and asks them to pay for the privilege of owning a part of it.Overall a good article, but I am confused how selling digital advertising space on the side of a web page (pixels on a screen) and selling a ship in digital space (pixels on a screen), which both are for profit, is any different.There is a buyer who is willing, a seller who is willing and a transaction.
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RMT is legal, apparently, unless you talk about it, then it's not.Man, I don't know either.
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But the article says they are OK with people selling shit, they just don't want it on *their* forums
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somehow reminds me of the ToS impersonating rule
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The policy came on the advice of talking to their attorney's. You can't promote or direct openly on the RSI website or chat or point to a page which expressly does so but there was a desire to allow early backers to continue to gift ships to friends or family. So it's primarily, "don't ask, don't tell".I've actually melted one player's ship and sent back his new purchase--no charge at all.The people caught up in "early pledge ship hysteria" are no different than the players in Eve who took a loan or mortgage out to finance their clan fleet and have less to do with "the game" than "human psychology" (emphasis on "psycho").I've seen just as bad or worse in Eve where "beating someone" is considered just as much a valid part of the game when causing them personal distress in real life as it is when simply beating them in play.
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I always knew about 3rd party dealers but never felt the need to approach one as I am a Original Backer. Though I will admit I am really sad to hear people get suckered into these deals even as close as live chat on RSI's official site. Especially since I'm there a majority of the time as Yukikaze. Shame on anyone who would take advantage of someones excitement for a genuinely good purpose such as donating to development to bolster their own wallets! I thank you good writers of themittani to attempt to inform future pledgers. As always good day, night and farewell citizens!
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This must be referring to the Reddit side.
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So, three points:They've achieved great success in funding a AAA space combat game independent of publisher interests while staying open about the development process - perfectly executed.CR has a great track record with his existing games. The average single-platform AAA indie game cost $20 million to build a few years ago.
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It'll happen. Bitching and moaning is prevalent in any alpha process out there, and crowdfunded games are absolutely setting new records in forum toxicity.
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There's good news and bad news: the bad is that there's ~4500 alpha slots left at the moment, and I suspect those will go poof near dogfight release. ($40 is exactly how much you need to get in, though) The good news is that the dogfighting alpha will let you use every ship that exists, not just the ones you own!
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OK, "AAA indie" was a bit of a contradiction in terms, but the budget is very average.
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No. You'll be flying your pledge ship(s) in the dogfighting module.
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I honestly can't wait until the obvious consequences of putting out unclear rules come back and buttjam a large section of this community.The way it's going now, it appears that either the honest or the dishonest people playing this game are going to profit, which forecasts a 100% chance of sweet, sweet tears of space pixel injustice once "the rules" are clarified.
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You might want to avoid double negatives, some of us read this site when drunk.
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I think you need to read how intuitive and different their instancing system is. It's much more complex than STO and spans several servers.
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RMT? The game has not yet been released. Ships and any other 'virtual' gear are considered donations toward game development. For actual UEC, there are caps on how much you can purchase with money. Gear gained from donating are considered 'gifts' by the developers. Not earned, in-game gear. There is a distinction and I know most everyone here is smart enough to know the difference.Detractors and gripers will be many. It is in the nature of people to create dissent. EvE is a good game if you just take the time to play it. Every player earns what they have. I do not have the time it takes to be a real player in it so I had to move on. I don't understand though why people have moved away from just having fun with your free-time. Some have gotten so serious about their free-time hobby. I feel that 'fun' can be minimized by being to serious about pixels. My disposable income pays for my daughter's college and trips to Jamaica every other year.Wing Commander and Freelancer were/are good games. These guys know what they are doing and as we venture forth into the Dogfight module, Alpha and then Beta, they will do what 'they', not a publisher, feel is right to make a great game they, themselves want to play.The cost? When you have AMD vid card devs and monitor devs (for the 4K Enhanced monitors), VR devs (Oculous Rift), taking your input because you're game is revolutionizing PC gaming( and looks far better then what any console will pump out) I think it is safe to say this is not Vaporware or a pipe dream. Being a gamer since 1996, I've been disappointed alot recently with games as publishers mod them down for all players on all platforms. I am enthusiastic about SC just as I was about EVE.I am a backer but not crazily so. Even if its a great game, it just might not be for me. Still, I believe in what Chris Roberts wants to do and so I'm willing to help him along in his quest. It's the least that I can do when I've shelled out $60 for SWTOR, AoC, Champions Online and Rift. *facepalms*What I want is to enjoy the few hours I have some weekday evenings and for a few blocks of time on the weekends immersing myself in some serious Sci-fi action. It's not a second job or an obsession, it's just a great way to spend the little bit of free-time I have out of a busy week. Have a little faith and really 'read' and 'watch' this game develop instead of hacking it up before learning anything about it.Sorry in advance for the text wall.
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No, David Haddock recently (as in within the week) stated that players will be able to fly multiple ships in the Dogfighting Module even if they don't own them.This makes sense, since it means more ships will be tested by more people.
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Well, so far I've spent $4700 on Star Citizen. If the option to resell them for a higher price did not exist, I seriously doubt I would have put this much into the game. Will I resell them? Doubtful, but there is security in knowing that they have a high resale value.Honestly, since when did capitalism become such a bad thing? The writer of this article seems very biased, focusing more on those that profit vs those who do not, which are far greater. Regardless, Chris Roberts has created something far greater than a space sim, and the high resale values only serve to compliment the fantastic job all at CIG are doing.I hope 10 years from now all these limited ships will be worth in the thousands and Star Citizen will be worth in the billions 'cause they certainly deserve the success so far from my experience.
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It will never be EVE 2.0 that is impossible from the start. SC is a single player experience with a few multi-player elements mixed in and a social component dunno but to me that seems nowhere near what makes a MMO a MMO. Which is why I can not fathom why anyone would spend thousands of dollars of ships for a single-player experience.Or did they change that and its now a closed universe like EVE? That would be news.
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Thats exactly the point he has been making the same game over and over again yet everything since WC2 was garbage and failed to live up to any promises he made during the development. All I see in Star Citizens is a over-hyped product and a company abusing the hype for financial gain instead of trying to somewhat contain it.
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There is no RMT. All sales are final. This is not an investment its a 'contribution/donation' towards the game development. And heck CIG and CR with his vision deserve every damn penny.
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They will make hundreds of millions with the final product. Why scam the backers for a few million Dollars?
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The instancing will be invisible.It's not like STO, where every star system is an instance. As long as there are not 100 ships (not players!) in the same instance, you will never see the limitations of the architecture.
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I am already soured to this game in a hurry. LTI and the way they have handled it has realy made me regret getting involved with this game.
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It seems to me a bit like ticket scalping for a benefit concert. As long as people are trading pledge packages it goes to development but when it spreads over to Amazon it starts to betray fellow pledgers.
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I dunno why you keep saying it's a single player experience when there's going to be PVP and multi-crew ships and space-guilds and trading and stuff.
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If Star Citizen is pay to win (or pay earlier, win more) it's going to be a bad game.
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Get a grip people, LTI sin't what people think it is....I would happily give mine up if CIG decided that they were going to remove it, its not even worth worrying about
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Ever heard of World of Warcraft or League of Legends?
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In my opinion LTI is such a non-issue: I see everyone paying extra $$ for LTI as profoundly misguided people. But you know: there's one born every minute
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Some people have spent $20,000 so make of that what you will
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I think what's being missed here is that all of these things, with the exception of the Vanduul Scythe, can be bought in-game using in-game money. And you can get Scythes free in the game, just capture one. Don't even need to pay for it. You just can't insure the captured Scythes so you have to keep capturing new ones if you want to fly one for truly extended periods of time.So there's literally nothing sold that you can't get in-game. Even LTI is just normal insurance that lasts for an infinite amount of time. If you believe the devs they have said insurance won't cost a lot so LTI isn't worth a lot and definitely not worth what people think it's worth. If you don't think it's worth the money, don't buy it!
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Having sunk $4700 into a game you've never even played yet, I'll bet you hope Star Citizen is worth billions.Here's the thing though, you're gonna have people playing the game that aren't early backers, and when the game is released, they've gotta be treated more-or-less equally, or else the game isn't fair and nobody plays it except for the early backers, which means the game never takes off mainstream, which makes the entire game lose its value. But If early backers don't gain special advantages,then all you've got is "Gold-Plated ships" that quickly lose their value because they have no value in game unless people really LOVE Star Citizen.Good luck with such a significant investment. I'd just take my children to Disneyworld for a month.
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I'm happy...
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Name a third.
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If you were going to apologise in advance you'd put that comment *on top* of the wall of text. Not after everyone has already read it.
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umm.... have you not heard about the persistent universe? this game is far from single-player only. There's star citizen, which is online only, and squadron 42, which is a standalone single-player.
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Threads about this topic on SC forums are already being edited and moved to Off Topic by "objective" moderators: https://forums.robertsspaceind...Very telling.
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Wot
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Don't peddle your shit here.
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What's hilarious about this is The Mittani, a website using the name of a known member of Something Awful and the Goon entities, is complaining about something that is rampant on the Something Awful forum thread for this game.
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I don't see why CIG wouldn't wise up to the flow of money the same as CCP has over the years. Of course, I'd rather they spend their time developing the game than policing a virtual gray market.New frontiers always seem to hasten people into a gold rush, even if only the sellers of shovels are making any money.
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Just like the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Rothschilds and virtually every charlatan, jeweler and real estate hawker in real life...Once proud humanity has become subservient to little paper slips called money. A degradation of human consciousness.
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Good thing I neither like Second Life nor am I too fond of EVE after playing that spreadsheet game for far too long. Games that are that long on logistics always make me think I could just get a second job and get real cash for the effort.If the economy of the Star Citizen universe turns out to eat way too much time, we can luckily start private servers with our preferred balance between mayhem and subsequent refitting efforts.I used to play Wing Commander Armada (a lesser known multiplayer CR title) with some friends and we had no problem at all with the fact that there was no economy and no refitting to interrupt our nightly bouts of dogfighting.
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troll...
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So far, the SC forum seems a lot less toxic than EVE's forum, which held the record for an extended period of time...
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your opinion...My favorite was actually WC5, it had the best dogfighting mechanics. And Freelancer is still alive and kicking, thanks to its multiplayer capability.You're also forgetting, that he had to deal with constraints from bean counters and Microsoft fumbling and bumbling with his stuff.So lets not prejudice the experiment and see what he does on his own. If you can say one thing about him; he usually finishes his projects and they've all been playable and not buggy messes like numerous other people have delivered.So, I think you're just trolling trying to make a stink being all negative.
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I didn't expect them to have every angle worked out before the alpha phase... Did you?It took CCP years after release to figure that out...
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There's a difference between "being ok" with something, and just not having the manpower to deal with it...Real World corporations have been unable to control gray markets since industrialization began, but you expect it from CIG?Hard to say what the repercussions could be If they make some draconian rules, and invest time to enforce them, rather than just leaving it at telling the community to watch out and not get screwed by scalpers.
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haha very polite way to say that EVE is for people who have no life :) I hope SC will be totally unlike EVE in the mandatory time-consuming department...
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lmao :)
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So glad you know everything already and came here to tell us. Hail the troll..
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LoL, you're either a troll or someone paid by another butt-hurt company envious of the record-breaking crowd-funding this game has so far received.
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Idris-Ms and how limited they are: https://robertsspaceindustries...Vinyl | Enlisted: Sep 10, 2013"ships owned / (Name) / My fav = ♡ / x(#) = # of ships- Idris-M ( Mi Amore Cadenza ) ♡ x8 (bought 7 for other friends)"
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The SC community is an extremely vocal one in forums for any rival space game. Loudly tearing down those games and trolling any fans that game may have, it is leaving an extremely negative impression that I am sure will drive away many potential fans for SC if and when it ever gets released, I am also seeing the potential for a situation where if SC is not the holy grail of internet spaceship games for these 'fans' to turn on Chris Roberts Industries and demand refunds as has become trendy on the steam forums.

Originally launched a year ago, Cloud Imperium Games’ Star Citizen went on to break crowdfunding records and continues to pull in huge amounts of money from an avid fanbase. It remains to be see whether Chris Roberts and his team can make everyone happy, but right now the operation is a wonder to behold.

However, behind the developers' ongoing crowdfunding campaign to support development, a player operated market emerged that sells in-game goods for real money. This market has aimed at circumventing certain limits while enriching the dealers both in real world and virtual currency. These dealers are capitalizing on demand for items and features removed from the regular store and are thus unavailable to new backers who arrived late to the community.

Presently any new player that decides to back the game right now can go to Roberts Space Industries website, hit the pledge page and select a package that suits their needs. $30 buys the game when it’s released, $40 gets alpha access and spending more gets them a better spaceship as the starting ship, all the way up to the $275 Rear Admiral package which comes with the Constellation.

We are all used to crowdfunding and this strategy is standard procedure, but the ongoing incentivisation process creates different classes of backers where new arrivals are at a somewhat disadvantage compared to those who threw their hat in the ring early. For most users, the obvious difference is Lifetime Insurance (LTI). This insurance is supposed to guarantee that if a spaceship is ever destroyed, it will ultimately be replaced with one in similar condition. This isn’t supposed to be a gamebreaking difference, and the developers went to great pains to explicitly spell this out a devblog:

LTI is intended to make this more convenient for our early backers, not to unbalance the game in any way. Insurance does not negate the cost of repairing, rearming or docking your ship. It protects your hull in its current condition and does not allow you to explode a beaten up ship to exchange for a fresh one at no cost.

However, while new backers are unable to buy LTI packages, veteran backers can continue to do so until late November of this year. This enables the process commonly described as ‘pledge laundering’ where a new player gifts an item of equal value from the RSI store to a veteran backer. The veteran backer then melts the gifted item into store credit and uses the credit to purchase the item the new backer wants. Once done, the veteran backer than gifts the new item to the new backer. There’s a lesser known bonus for the backers who pledged during the original kickstarter: lower prices on practically everything. The previously mentioned $275 Rear Admiral package only costs an original backer $250, leaving a $25 excess. Because this practice is permitted by CIG, it isn't a true black market, but it's not entirely legitimate either, earning it the "grey market" name.

Now, what happens to that excess cash depends on who is involved. There are some launderers who give it back in the form of skins and other cheap pledge items to the new player. Others only return part of it, keeping a portion as a tip. However, there are some who silently pocket the difference, not even bothering to tell the new backer that they’re donating to someone else’s wallet.

As an experiment, an account was created and logged into the official Star Citizen chat posing as someone interested in buying a package. Immediately several enthusiastic individuals who were very happy to help offered to do so in private. All but one suggested looking at bigger pledges, and were very negative about the Arbiter and Pathfinder packages (for which there is no price difference). The Rear Admiral was "the way to go if you can get the cash." One suggested a tip can be given to him for this service by sending some ship skins along with the equally priced item being sent. At $5, skins are the smallest unit of currency for these transactions.

None of them mentioned the price difference, and when it was brought up two of them insisted that they would take 100% of this difference as payment and that a buyer should be thankful they would be doing all the "hard work" on their behalf.

One such encounter during this multi-day experiment came some what serendipitously. Asking about LTI laundering prompted an RSI moderator, a community moderator who is not emplyed by CIG, to send a private message. In their message they stated it is prohibited to discuss the laundering in the chat but provided a link to that moderator's own "free" laundering service. At first glance the launderer cares for the non-veteran players: they say they do not scam but instead provide the service for "free" with no additional cost to the base price.

Posing as a buyer, the moderator was asked about the markups through their service, such as charging $125 for a $110 package which comes with no physical goods to warrant any additional costs for shipping. Pressed on why that item also received a markup despite containing purely digital goods, the launderer stated that their post held the answer. At the bottom of their "Want To Sell" post they claimed they wanted to match the non-veteran price point from the RSI store, even though they are getting the item for $15 cheaper than the non-veteran backer price and pocketing the difference.

 

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