Sov Problems - Why No New Blood?

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Isk isn't so much the problem but more so the fact that Structure's determine sov not actions, lets say you where to apply faction war system to sov, (which if you have have a brain you would see CCP is using FW zones as the tester for future sov) Large alliances would live in one or two systems like now, but you wouldn't need massive super fleet to grind sov just a group of friends that pick a corner of space that no one is really using, sure big boys could come in and push them out but it would be a huge pain in the ass to do so cause they wouldn't be living in the space unless the small group of friends, and they wouldn't need to be any pet or renter to do so. Also with CCP removing Pos Shields and moon mining in the future you won't see tech cartels able to control inflow of materials, and the people living in the space would have to ring mine to get the minerals aka only people living in there space would be able to take advantage of the things there not some one like PL many regions away getting rich and fat with zero sov and a ton of blues.
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No one will fund carriers outside of tech alliances. Stop dreaming.
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I used to make a killing seeding the market hub for Gentlemen's Club (the very alliance Islador mentioned as expensive to live in). Let's not forget that all the small alliances that eventually are able to hold a chunk of space only are able to do that after they've been given the blessing to come out of NPC space and hold sov by a larger alliance. No amount of isk can really be put on that blessing.
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Ignore the superscript thing - seems that it's not supported. Just keep in mind it should be used then :P
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I consider myself to be part of a new blood alliance, but not in the same sense that the author, because we've joined a coalition.Prior to joining a coalition we tried to take the steps necessary to get started towards getting sov on our own. We started out in high-sec recruiting and we grew by 1000 members, tripling our membership in 6 months.Then we moved to NPC null to try and stir up conflicts with the locals, and grind poses. Many a large control tower was killed with battlecruisers. While in NPC null we had a donation drive to purchase our first titan.Even though we now had our very own super we did not feel confident taking our own space. My perspective as a line man was it was either due to the lack of capitals & supers, or more likely the fear of being blobbed. Even under CTAs we could only form up 100-200 pilots, which would be crushed by coalitions that could field 100-200 capitals alone.The question for "New Blood Alliances" is where can you take space without a coalition out blobbing you and killing the titan that your entire member base spent weeks to save for? That being said, I'm not calling for change, to decrease the power of the blob, because the blob is realistic, and in reality with enough preparation the blob can be dealt with.
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This is nonsense--your argument about the difficulty in funneling nullsec income into "alliance coffers" couldn't be more wrong. You can tax ratting at any level you like, tax refining at any level you like (though mining is a foolish waste of time, even in null, for anyone not burdened with a dozen accounts--even Ark is worth only marginally more than highsec ore at this point, and less than lowsec ore), directly collect moon income, and set the PI tax rate at your POCOs to whatever level you like. Moreover, the "market management" that you mention isn't even a source of income to begin with--everything you make supplying a nullsec market comes at the expense of someone living there. It's just a way to move around wealth created via the other categories.In fact, nullsec is widely regarded as being very "top-down" in terms of ISK distribution right now because the only resources that truly exceed what's available in highsec are moons, the income from which is almost always handled at the alliance (or at least corporation) level.The difficulty isn't getting isk from the average line members placed into the hands of the alliance--it's in getting the isk from the servers in the first place, because (from a purely financial perspective, and setting the aforementioned moons aside) sovereignty is simply not worth the expense.
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Fair enough, though these are all changes that have yet to happen and will take massive resources on CCP's to implement. My goal is to present an alternative that will create similar chaos without requiring such massive overhauls or iterations to existing systems.
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Sounds impressive, who do you fly with? As a line member you may not be able to answer this question, but why join a coalition? Why not sit on the sidelines in NPC space and pick at that coalition generating fights and, maybe one day, being instrumental in the demise of that coalition?
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My statement assumes that the corporation has managed to get into one of the pre existing large sov holder alliances somehow. Probably as a minor member in one of the pet alliances. The supers will come, its not like they're that rare anymore.As for market seeding. Its decent money, I've had friends finance supers off the back of the alliance home system market. Jump freighters aren't particularly unsafe if you have half a clue. Defending them requires an intel channel, active FCs who will run fleets, and people who will join fleet. None of this costs the corp isk. Sure roaming reimbursements and an FC incentive program are highly desirable, but they aren't necessary.Multiple poses? Yeah the corp stick one down, every other corp sticks one down, there will be plenty.Stations? What. In all my time in 0.0 I've only seen my alliance drop a station once. It was a particularly important system that functioned as the linchpin of the defense plan for the area. Anyone who has flown through 0.0 will see plenty of stations. There are not limits of what people can stash in there. Until you start talking about corporate hangars. 1 station should be entirely sufficient for our theoretical noobie corp.The bigger issue a noobie corp faces is having an FC presence with at least halfway decent people. In some ways I'd call this more of a barrier to entry than isk problems. If a corp has an FC who can keep people entertained and make the corp fun then it will do ok. Without that life is going to be difficult.
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Issue is Coalition blocks, protecting their MAIN assets moons, and ensuring they stay ahead of the arms race with their caps and supers. Staying buds with xyz and having NIPs with anything perceived a threat is pathetic.CCP break that shit up.
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Moon income has killed sov for the new guys......in 2-3 years we will all look back in amazement that they let the moons go as is for so long. The only way for new blood to join legitimate sov status is by joining already established alliances, al la this article explains so well regarding those startup & maintain costs.
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It doesn't matter how expensive null is. As long as the guy with more money and troops is capable of forcing their will down your throats you will never be able to get started in null.Their needs to some sort of way of isolating yourself from the rest of null space, like building islands or something of that nature that you can easily supply logistically but moving in a large military force requires near permanent dedication to that area. A zone where a coalition can not move in, burn everything, park its pet, then move on, but when you invade you would be forced to settle down and make a base their.
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Alliances have no means to tax ratting. They never have. Corporations can tax ratting, but how do you enforce a percentage take automagically going to the alliance? That would have to managed by players and as such is very difficult to enforce. As for POCOs and market management; You're assuming you have POCOs to tax and a station to run a market out of. All of which are very expensive.
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1000m3 = 1k m3Damn math nazis.
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There are two issues.The ISK issue is one of them, but I believe that it is not so much the absolute costs that matter, but the relative income imbalances between "new allances" and "established nullsec alliances" that mean that established folks can much better handle the costs of sov. This, however, shows how unstable the system is, where you would like to have enough income potential in nullsec to incentivize people to live there (sufficient reward for the risk). On the other hand, if actual income in nullsec is sufficiently higher than other areas, it significantly raises barriers to entry.It's extremely insightful to notice that the incentives to live in null are based around income potential, whereas barriers to entry are based on actual income. The difference is all about risk management: by lowering risk and converting more of the potential income into actual income, you can raise the barriers to entry! If an alliance doesn't want it's home to be knocked over, this is a rational strategy.The other issue is the significant difference in mobility between many large null blocs today and new alliances that would like to set up shop. As just one example, a recent survey of lowsec moons in a region found that many moons were being harvested by a POS owned by a nullsec bloc whose nearest sov system was over 40 jumps away. In fact, three towers in a single system did not have a single online defense battery, but have been online for over six months without being destroyed. However, anyone interested in taking over that moon has to compete with the fact that this alliance can easily project a fleet halfway across the map to defend a minor moon. New alliances cannot do this. I argue that moons would be able to be owned by many more alliances if projecting power 40-60 jumps away from "home" was made significantly more difficult.These two issues combine when you realize that being able to project power nearly instantly -- relative to the length of timers -- to assets spread across the map is a dramatic form of risk reduction. War is still fundamentally about logistics and power projection, after all.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't SOV the wrong way of looking at this? There are several respectable alliances who due to their lack of SOV are able to project power across the Galaxy.... Groups like Pandemic Legion, Black Legion etc... Instead of renting, consolidating power out of NPC null and Lowsec should be considered the way to go.Hell, there are alliances who could take sov, but thrive on their NPC pirate mission riches etc..this website needs to start up its "tales of the blaptastic" series again, and start doing interest pieces on npc null and lowsec success stories...It usually just seems like nullsec politics, highsec guys complaining about null and WH guys complaining about their lack of relevance, however there are a lot of serious players who are overlooked
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"Alliances have no means to tax ratting. They never have."Wrong. Audit.
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Because that doesnt get you space, and there is no guarantee the conquering party wont go 'If you want space, pay rent or face our supercaps'.Of course, if you do have an agreement to get space once X is defeated, then I guess you've joined a coalition.
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BPH, which was a founder corp of Lawn, was subsidising caps when they lived in Oasa and Geminate.
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no, 1 cubic kilometer is 1,000m x 1,000m x 1,000 m... or 1,000,000,000m3.1k m3 != 1km3.
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1km3 = 1km x 1km x 1km.That represented in meters is slightly more then 1000.If 1km is in fact 1000m linearly, then computed to volume would be:1000m x 1000m x 1000m =1,000,000,000 m3
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Ban all goons and redditors problems solved
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So you want to get rid of non-consentual sov pvp but only against your alliance?
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It is commonly understood in EVE parlance for 1km3 to actually mean 1000m3. Or you could be a nitpicking faggot.
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An audit is a manual process, which takes manpower and is therefore difficult. You try auditting every corp in an alliance like TEST or goonswarm and let me know how much fun you're having.
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Apperantly it isn't, otherwise people wouldn't be complaining about this abuse of units.
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PL is playing a different game than what the OP is.
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and yet, you yourself said '1km3 = 1km x 1km x 1km', 2 hrs before taking Dernarious to task for making the exact same point... in a reply to someone criticizing the same comment you're criticizing now. Inconsistent much?
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Would prefer CCP added some new content that favors smaller groups and creates a space to give smaller and by extension also some newer corps some sovereignty chance to get started that is not in nullsec and that can't be blobbed. It is too difficult to change nullsec as it's become so entrenched. A new space with a new design specifically for small scale sovereignty and pvp is in order
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Go to W-space and make the isk and learn the logistics. Stop whining, there are solutions in game learn to use them

(In the first part of this series I explained the differences between "Little Guys" and "New Blood". In this part of this series I will explain the barriers keeping new blood out of Sov Space.)

Background

I've been in nullsec on the fringes for years now. Three years ago I was a Director of modro. We were in Gentlemen’s Club, an Atlas satellite alliance. Back then modro was stressed financially - just being in nullsec was expensive. We lacked the raw isk and tools to setup profitable reactions or run an import/export market. The alliance’s finances were a mess as well. They, too, lacked the tools and isk to manage profitable reactions.

Gentleman's Club fell shortly before Atlas did and modro and I parted ways several months later. I started FELON with the hope of one day holding space. FELON grew, and eventually I lead it through a year of nullsec in two separate renter alliances. The first we joined was The Methodical Alliance. I watched TMA struggle with finances, unable to pay its 15b/month rent check to NCdot. TMA's first couple of months and its first station were paid for by an 'angel' investor. That investor lost nearly everything when TMA was evicted from the area during CFC’s Tribute invasion. The second alliance, Rebel Alliance of New Eden, was much more together, but once again foisted into existence by an angel investor, nearly wiping him out in the process.

Why there is no New Blood in Sov Space

There are dozens of competing views on why there are no independent alliances left in Sov space. Some say that Super Capitals keep them out, or that rookie forces can’t take the moons needed to fund a sov empire and the raw EHP is too much for young alliance to chew through!

While these are all semi-valid or valid reasons as to why there are no 'new' alliances in sov space, I would like to posit another reason: ISK. Sov is expensive and offers little in return for its costs.

ISK is the Problem

The tools of sovereignty are costly. Below is a list from most to least expensive.

Titan ~90 Billion: A bridging titan is an amazing logistics resource, allowing you to jump regular freighters as if they were Jump Freighters. It is essential for safely and swiftly moving the Ihubs, upgrades and station components required for Sovereignty.

Station ~ 20 Billion: A station is essential. Without it there is no private storage, no market, no contracts and two fewer reinforcement timers for a system. A system with a station is also more likely to see bling ratters and hardcore miners.

Jump Freighters ~ 6.5 Billion: Jump Freighters are essential for supplying markets and handling basic POS management. The number of Jump Freighters necessary to supply an alliance is determined by distance to Jita, supporting infrastructure and the alliance's rate of consumption.

Dreadnoughts ~ 2.5 Billion: Dreadnoughts represent the bare minimum in efficient DPS. A close range dread can deal 10,000 DPS which makes them essential for stripping away the raw hitpoints of Sov Structures.

Carriers ~ 1.6 Billion: Carriers are the hallmark in sov structure repair, without a sizable carrier fleet repairing any damaged sov structure will take dozens of pilots and the better part of a day.

Freighters ~ 1.5 Billion: Freighters are required to move sov structures around. Infrastructure Hubs in particular are 750km3 and thus may only be moved by freighters. Upgrades for those Ihubs range from 5km3 to 500km3 and as such require freighters as well.

Control Towers ~ 750m: Large Control towers cost ~350m on their own, must be fueled and armed/armored, averaging another 300m for the first month, more outside of sov. Towers are used primarily for staging during conflicts and as safe spots and supply depots in peacetime.

Infrastructure Hubs ~ 300m: Infrastructure hubs are the lynch pin of Dominion Sovereignty. A system may house only one online Ihub at a time, the Ihub makes the TCU invulnerable and has two reinforcement timers. Ihubs are invulnerable as long as the system is not contested.

Sovereignty Blockade Units ~ 175m: Sovereignty Blockade Units (SBUs) are required for invading space and can have defensive uses as well. SBUs are placed on the gates in the target system. The system’s gates must be 51% covered by SBUs in order to contest the system and make the Ihub and Station vulnerable.

Customs Offices ~ 100m: A Customs Office (POCO) is required to efficiently leverage Planetary Interaction. Running PI under POCOs you do not control subjects you to their tax rate and sometimes prohibits the use of the POCO. This often necessitates the destruction of existing POCOs and their replacement.

Territorial Claim Units ~ 75m: Territorial Claim Units (TCUs) are the proverbial flag in the ground. A TCU must be placed in each system sov is desired in. It is invulnerable as long as the Ihub and Station are still under your control.

The above list details the cost of the tools. It does not include the upkeep costs for sov once you’ve established it. It does not include the fuel and ammunition costs of your dreadnought and carrier fleet. It does not include the attrition cost of losing dozens of SBUs, Dreads, Carriers, JFs or other critical tools. Just assembling the basic tools of even a tiny sov empire is mindbogglingly expensive.

[name_1]
I'm an accomplished FC and have been playing for six years, I run FELON, the founding corp of Sadistica Alliance, and head the alliance. I also manage a ~50b isk market to support the alliance and am currently working as a technical writing intern.