Sov Experts Speak Out

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Hello , my name is Luwc - and I am an expert.
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I think the comment about power projection is spot on, not sure about the proposed solution - but it is something that needs thinking about. Nice piece of work.
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Elise, I was in the C3N headshot, and it wasn't 600 vs 600, it was 600 vs a couple structures. They simply did not engage.
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PL don't play eve anymore, remember?
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Nice to see Progodlegend takes his wrong opinions with a side of homophobia
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How about we try something new and change how mineral asteroids spawn?First every belt gets equal chance to get every kind of asteroid. Second randomize their spawn times. Third we spawn set multiplier of average of daily mined minerals (for example 3). Fourth if the belt already has too much of that type of asteroid no more spawn.Soon every belt in high-sec will be empty of asteroids and miners have to go to low-sec and null-sec, which will have full belts. Thus we give targets for PvP and give value to null-sec territory.
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S2N enagaged in a maelstrom fleet whilst -A- and friends sat 100k off in tengus, it wasn't 600 vs 600 granted but their was a fight.
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progodlegend = buzzcutpsycho
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If anything, I think that power projection should be higher. Maybe not for capitals, but for pilots at least. 24 hours cooldown for jumpclones is dumb. If I'm ratting in my expensive training/ratting clone, I can jump to the frontlines clone with cheap implants and see some action....but then I'm locked out for a day to return back. And then another day to see some more action. Why not remove or make this cooldown short (like, 1 hour short) if you're making a clonejump inside of the same station at least ? I'm sure it'll help with more (small gang) action. Come to think of it, it's implants that are dumb and jumpclones are just highlighting it.
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Besides the points about moon mining being broken, everything Kismeteer said was pretty much irrelevent to the topic everyone else was talking about.
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The topic was sov, and it all seems relevant to that, so I'm not sure what you're smoking.
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In Sov conquests, I really wish there were tactical objectives aimed at small guerrilla gangs. I always imagine lots of random "events" spread over a day or more that a small 5-man gang could achieve. Then, with enough of these "small wins", that guerrilla gang could hinder, accelerate, or somehow alter the conquest of Sov.
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sov warfare = blob warfare. Unless you remove the ability to respawn hundreds of ships onto the field it's always going to be that way. If it's smaller fleet fighting you looking for I don't think sov 0.0 is the place to find it.
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To be fair what Kismeteer was talking about wasn't what everyone else was talking about. Everyone was talk about making pvp more fun, and how shoot structures isn't fun, and Kismeteer was talking about building SBU,and dropping SBU, and transfering TCU's to other alliances, thing 95% of the game pop. doesn't care about, and likly doesn't want game dev. time wasted on.
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damn only 15b haha. good to know he lost a bunch of isk then :)
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How about making systems provide money, rather than cost it via sov bills? That way, holding them is important. The more planets/moons etc in a system, the more it's worth. This way, every system counts. More importantly, it should dissuade giant coalitions slightly, as they can't just take a region and divide the moons.
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Like I pointed out in the article, each person interviewed was interacting with sov in a different way. Kismeteer's interactions with sov are different than the others, so it makes sense that his point of view and what he sees as lacking would be different.
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Of course it's blob warfare, but if two opposing blobs each have a dozen locations they might want to fight over simultaneously, then you're getting closer and closer to "small scale" warfare
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Yes. A conversation about sov mechanics was wasted by somebody speaking about the actual sov mechanics. We certainly wouldn't want to waste dev time by having them fix the sov mechanics when they could be fixing the sov mechanics.Give your head a shake.The things every other person was speaking of, the structure shoots, the current scale of pvp combat, the lack of meaningful roams, stem from the stuff Kismeteer was talking about. In the current sov mechanics if you want to invade or defend sov space, you will find yourself eyeballs deep in SBUs, TCUs, ihubs, staging POS and station flipping. Any discussion about sov mechanics that ignores the actual mechanics of holding and taking sov is a wasted discussion.
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Wasn't sovereignty invented to mitigate pre-sov station flipping?
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And all of them mentioned this. Null used to be the place for piles of smaller fleet fighting. The "blob" fights only happened when entities went to war (something that happened maybe once a year, rather than the forever-at-war stuff that goes on today). The arguments basically came down to a lack of bottom-up income, and a lack of reason for individuals to make income in null vs empire/wh.
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Have rats initiate attacks against POS. A fleet of rats spawns in a 0.0 system, with capitals and all. Starts hitting POS in that system for 1-2 hours or until everything is reinforced or dead.Maybe have a system whereby they come back to finish off stuff when the timer runs out for each tower. If you kill them they instead spawn in a different system, rinse and repeat. If you don't kill them they have a chance to switch systems anyway, but usually they just come after the same one until they clean it out.Spawn one of these in each constellation in 0.0 and you now NEED to have your players hunt them down or have your infrastructure crippled. If it's possible, you could have them function like Faction police NPCs so that player pirates with high standing towards their faction can fight alongside them. Heck, you can have the pirate faction pay players a bounty if they participate in killing a tower.
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wait is progodlegend playing eve these days..... ?_?
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As someone who grew up doing highsec wardecs, I'm getting a kick out of this suggestion.While doing highsec wardecs, it is all too common for some 0.0 victim (or not even one) to deride us for just shooting unarmed miners and haulers. Now there's this suggestion to force miners to 0.0 and lowsec so they can be "targets for PvP." :laffo:
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Enforced ratting is dumb. Making POS and sov warfare so horrible that no player wants to do it, then getting the NPCs to do it for you is also dumb.
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The Sov mechanics issue always comes back to how unbalanced moon minerals are across space. Long story short, they need to rebalance all regions at once,and correct for their rates per region/conatellation to correspond with rarity. If there wasnt "good space" and "bad space" for no reason other than moons, null would be mostly fixed.
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I think we got at least one big fight over the timers:http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_re...
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Yeah, I would MUCH rather shoot other people than grind through rats. Grinding rats is only a small step up from grinding a structure.
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How about giving DUST 514 players moon goo mines on planets?They would have something to fight over and they could be used as ISK sinks. Also the extra supply would help with the bottleneck in Technetium.
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Here read this: http://jestertrek.blogspot.fi/...He has framework for what you're talking about.
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From experience, guerrilla gangs can have the following effects on SOV space.1: Residents stop using the space. In 1 week, the target constellation is EMPTY.2: Titan wielding residents offline the cyno jammers in system(s) so that they can drop on you.3: Residents start to get space-poor and completely demoralized.While neither of these two outcomes is directly related to SOV, it can be interesting from a tactical standpoint if you are preparing for a surprise invasion. Unfortunately, many alliances do not have guerrilla groups, improperly utilize the groups they have, or don't want to pay the premium for outside help.I think QDlaty/quantum-link might be available after the TRIBE shakeup, and I am certain that there are others out there in the same line of work (QD, if you get a gig out of this, I want a finder's fee).
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"While neither of these two outcomes is"Wow... Just wow.
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To be frank.... If a corp of players moves into the area and effectively stops the "owners" from utilizing a system, especially for an extended period of time (like a week), then it's inconceivable that they aren't altering the SOV of that system. Even moreso if they actually utilize the system for themselves! Then again, perhaps SOV does not mean what I think it means.
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It's a start.... although I think it has some loopholes as presented,I really think in-system activity should be at the foundation of maintaining and protecting Sov. I think this is non-trivial to implement, however... and needs to be carefully planned and vetted.
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I'm not certain I agree with this. With guerrilla groups, the SOV doesn't matter as there is no need for docking and POS's. The TCU might as well say "Coca-Cola Presents HED-GP". Understand that SOV isn't ownership, it's a grant of rights by CCP to an entity. Guerrilla groups own whatever space they happen to be working in. It's their home. They have better bookmarks, logistics, and are more at-ease with the situation than their SOV holding opponents. TBH, if I gained SOV via guerrilla warfare, I'd lose money as there wouldn't be anyone left to shoot.That said, I'd be in favor of being given the ability to turn unused SOV space into NPC space..
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another HH member spotted :)
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They dont want sov to be a job but progod wants jumping capitals to be one?meh.
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Ill support anything that does the following:Gets rid of the ******* structure bashing. Its a GAME, not a JOB.The structure bashing makes it so anyone who doesnt have 3 hours and a super is essentially useless when it comes to taking space.Get rid of bashing structures once your enemy has given up.If they won't fight for their stuff, they don't deserve it. The fact that, IN SEVERAL CASES, alliances have still held space even after giving up the fight (-A-, ROL, XDeath, NC., Raiden.) forcing structure bashes to continue for weeks or even months is ridiculous, some form of natural regression to NPC or unclaimed space when a system is left unoccupied by the sov holder for a certain time should be added.
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Maybe so, but he's a great FC... as long as he doesn't sleep through the timer...
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Another isk faucet, another reason to hold massive regions of unoccupied space.The idea is to make people NOT want to control massive regions of space they won't occupy
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Might just be me... but maybe the 100+ supercapitals + supporting capitals spooked them.
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Lee may not care that much about making isk off shooting -A-
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Here is my alternative to Progod's force projection solution. I don't like the flat out cooldown timer, because it kills the "ninja" ability of smaller guys to drop in, siege, shoot something, then jump out before uber blob arrives. It also hurts the ability of the defender to defend their space from multiple attacks. If you roam into the heart of somebody's space, they should be able to react quickly. This is very similar to the cooldown, but it give the ability to jump within a certain area of space without a cooldown timer.Introduce two new variables that need to be checked whenever a pilot makes a cyno jump, is bridged, or uses a jump bridge. The first is new timer called the "cyno jump timer". This timer is similar to the jump clone timer, but its only an hour or two. The second is simply the "last system jumped from". Whenver a pilot jumps to a cyno beacon, uses a titan bridge, or uses a jump bridge the system first checks the "cyno jump timer". If the timer is 0, then jump according to existing rules and then set the "cyno jump timer" to 1-2 hours and set the "last system jumped from" to this system. If the timer is not 0, then check the distance in AU between the destination system and the "last system jumped from". If the distance is greater than 15AU you cannot jump or bridge.At this point, you effectively limit the sphere of influence of a single pilot to a 30AU diameter. They can control that area of space, but cannot go outside that area unless they give up the ability to protect that space for a few hours.
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When people talk about the lack of fights, good or otherwise,in 0.0; they are often mean lack of fights in player owned 0.0. I live in NPC 0.0and low sec, there are lots of fights there – because there are more peopletravelling gate to gate. Hang around somewhere like Curse for a week and you’llsee triple A, snigg, agony, etc all roaming. Sometimes those guys gank anunsuspecting traveller and other times they run into each other and have abrawl.It’s the amount of travel in space that increases thepotential for a fight. You would imagine that in a battle for sov thattypically involves hundreds, if not thousands, of players that there would belots of fights as players fly gate to gate? There isn’t because most of thoseplayers bridge into conflicts from their staging into whichever system they areattacking at the time. You do get roams, gatecamps etc around those stagingsystem but they are peripheral skirmishes.So I agree with progod that power projection is a problem,if it were altered in such a way that encouraged gate to gate travel I do believethat would encourage the guerrilla warfare tactics people here would like tosee.I think changing the sov mechanic to have fewer hours ofgrinding is a good thing, however, if that’s all that changes sov warfare won’tbecome more fun: just less awful.
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The problem with "tactical objectives aimed at small guerrilla gangs is that 100 guys can always do it better than 10.
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The side that can field 600 pilots can put 50 in each while the side that can only field 300 can put 25 in each. Presto, blob warfare! If the 300 man side tries to blob up into a single ball to hit an objective, the side that can field 600 just blobs up as well and beats them.It's pure and simple mathematics and no manner of twisting the game rules to try and favor people with fewer numbers (besides just handing them I Win buttons that the people with numbers aren't allowed to use for no reason other than ~Le Blobbers~) is going to solve that.Learn to Diplomat.
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Yes there is some big flaws in sov mechanics i think they should do the following1# rework pos / stations to a modular level.where it could scale from smallest solo new player to the biggest alliance needs. a pos should be able to mount both a shield (pos shield), a Docking bay and would eat resources (Fuel blocks) depending on number of reactors that produce the PG needed and Datacores that produces CPU and heat and heat must be dispatched.unifying all stations/pos in to one type will not just help CCP clean up the code but they will also make the destruction of stations and make multiple stations available in nullsec. (GOOD)since the pos would scale it would be easy for an alliance to defend its "Stageing system" or "home" with a really terrifying pos.2# once the structure is in place they could revamp moon mining to a "ACTIVE" miningmeaning the moon mining laser would break off the moongoo to ring mining asteroids and the asteroids would the be harvested by the miners.3# adding Coaltion as a entity above Alliance and give them ingame channels etc.4# remove local as intel channel, local is dumb. local should have an option "show only you if you write"and then to replace it replace it with a ingame tool that allow you to share your scannings, and probeing with fleet,corp, alliance, coaltion level.5# sov level of a system should be based on how many is in that system normaly so moving to a new system or down a important pipe the level should spike very fast at the same time a system that noone used will slowly dispatch down to a level 16# and there should be a pos upgrade that allow you to try and find neutral and red ships in your system so a AFK cloaker is never safe in a hostile system he have to be jumping around to be safe and that would spell the end of AFK cloaking while online cloaking moving around in system would still be safe. it could still take an hour or two to lock down the enemy but weekly afk cloaking in system wouldn't work you would get caught and killed.7# a long distance scanner on POS that allow you to gather intel from adjent system for example and report the intel to the intel tool.8# ways for small gangs to interupt the income / intel of an bigger entity * Hacking intel pos to put false intel to the enemy * ninja mine the ore around the moon ring mining * interupt production in POS by hacking its mainframe. * sending dust mercs to a pos to try and steal it * launching an assult on a pos with dust mercs to force players sitting inside the hangar to fly out or die. *
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tl:dr nulls boring sovs broke wah were to rich wah i dont like shiooting structures for my isk ccp should just give it me wah............... nul sec wah wah wah
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The OPTION to have a DUST514 team flip a station or POS (and the Sov) might be fun. Maybe you'd need a small gang to distract the POS Guns. Perhaps you'd have to use a now useless hacking ship like an Echelon to get in the shields and then deploy the DUST guys to fight in the station and kill the DUST or NPC defenders. Upgraded stations could have better NPC defenders (like playing Halo on Legendary or something).
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This actually seems pretty well thought out and complete.Definitely get rid of local. That's what keeps me out of null as a solo explorer. If null equals violence without CONCORD intervention, then null dwellers should learn to live without the niceties of empire communication channels.Besides, it would make null so much more approachable.Man, I hope modular POS's make their appearance sometime soon. A small semi-permanent habitat for a solo nomad type. A slightly larger one for a five man corp to do some industry in...
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The smallest habitat could hold two modules. A lab for science as explorers usually find invention related stuff, (and for production of smaller items such as ammo), and a small ship hangar.The hangar would hold up to five frigates or two frigates and two cruisers or a frigate and a battlecruiser (perhaps based on volume, perhaps being able to store packaged ships), with a modest sized cargo bay... So at a pinch it could be used by up to five all with frigs or more like two/three people with various different types of teamwork possible.And being small, it could be enveloped by a "field cloak" that would need some kind of fuel maintenance.The next step could be minimum of three modules. A larger hangar/storage area and a unit with ship etc. building capability but too big for a cloak, so the third module would be armor and a small, powerful shield array capable of remote shield/armor repping within a given radius, and and away we go... :-)
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The lack of 'good' fights in null may be due more to culture than to broken game mechanics. EVE players are notoriously risk-averse, and null players are no exception for the most part. The average null player may complain about lack of fights, but will eagerly turn tail and run if the odds are close to even. He will sit for hours on a titan complaining about lack of 'good' targets, while waiting to hotdrop a fleet half the size of his, and will loudly complain if the FC takes him into an even fight and loses.Bottom-up income sounds nice, but it won't give fights. An alt with a cloak and a cyno gen can disrupt all activity in a system better than any roaming fleet. There has to be a culture on both sides of roaming gangs that will engage against even odds or worse, and of forming defense fleets that will do the same. Game mechanics might reduce the incentives for blobbing, for example by eliminating titan bridges, and may encourage pilots to live in and 'defend' their space out of a sense of ownership, by tying income to individual pilot rather than to passive alliance activity; but they can't force players to change their mindsets.
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Elise hits the nail on the head quite a few times.

Lately, I have noticed an increasing number of armchair “experts” rise up to bloviate about what is wrong with sov mechanics and how to improve nullsec sovereignty. With the CSM Winter Summit ongoing, and several issues related to sovereignty on the list of topics being discussed, this seemed like a good time to address the issue. I began by asking around in various places who people felt were true experts on sov. As the names came in, I reached out to those individuals. Several did not respond, but I did end up speaking to three (technically four) people, of varied backgrounds, who are bona fide masters of the topic.

PANEL OF EXPERTS

Elise Randolph. CSM member and longtime PL leader and FC. He has roots in alliances like Cult of War and Sons of Tangra before joining PL in mid-2009. He ran fleets during PL’s loss of Fountain to IT Alliance. Afterwards, he became instrumental in PL’s highly successful nomadic years, as well as their current place in HBC.

Progodlegend. From a primary FC in Gentlemen’s Club to the leader of Nulli Secunda. He has defended several different regions and invaded about as many both before and after Dominion.  

Kismeteer and Andski. These two you may not know by name. However, GSF’s invasion of northern regions would not have happened without guys like them. These are the logistics guys. The people who put up and fuel towers and bridges. The guys who onlined hundreds of SBUs and TCUs over the past year to make the invasions possible. Kismeteer had experience with sov logistics prior to Dominion to compare to our current mechanics. He pointed me to something that xttz wrote on sovereignty mechanics as well, a person who seems to have the respect of players from pretty much every corner of EVE for his knowledge of sov.

WHAT IS RIGHT

Kismeteer:

I like the way mining/ratting upgrades help out, though I disagree with a few things about them. I like the fact that there is some 'effort' with regard to ihub maintenance. I love the static timers you have for stations, it is much less chaotic than timing a tower.

Elise:

The HBC vs SoCo fights that started in delve over neo moons were like 50 vs 50 and 100 vs 100. Headshotting C3N (Nulli staging system) was a 600 on 600 man slugfest, and then that coalition fell apart. Stront timers are a little more flexible and this is why I think moon (mechanics) are kind of a good thing. From the perspective of invading someone, the first targets you go after are the money moons. After those fights are dried up, you go after jump bridge towers and then after that you start focusing on the outlying sytems that you just cut off due to jump bridges being gone. The scale is /generally/ smaller for those ones.

WHAT IS WRONG

Elise:

I don't think it's "wrong" per se but it is missing something partially because of the system, and partially because eve has evolved. It's evolved to the area where fights in nullsec are largely over structures and systems and all that hoopla, so the fights are of that scale. Back in "the day" people roamed around in small groups and had a good amount of fun, but that's because there were people around in space to harass.  In the current structure the isk flows from the top down - so a good alliance creates an SRP, supercap buy, all that stuff. But the alliance itself doesn't care so much if its members are being harassed. So in a perfect system, the isk would flow from the bottom up, and alliance income would be based on the members doing some activity.

Progodlegend:

I will have you know, that throughout my eve career, I've generally been one who has been relatively ok with most of the changes CCP makes or doesn't make. They are all mechanics that define a sandbox, and then we figure out what to make of them from there. I haven't minded a single interation of titans or supers or capitals including their current form. The only two things I have had a legitimate gripe about is the absolute retardedness that is tech moons and everything that surrounded the "bottleneck" being switched to tech moons and I think one of the biggest issues with eve right now is you pretty much have to make a timer to create a fight.

I just felt it was retarded to pack (the best income moons) all in to one place, especially the north, which is so compact in terms of Light years (easy to jump around all over the place), that there has never been a moment since 2009 when one entity (or two entities that are loosely working together) hasn't controlled a huge majority of the tech moons in the game.

People shouldn't be trying to force small gang pvp on people through structure grinding. Thats the wrong approach, as it just creates more timers, and timers are exactly where small gang pvp DOES not happen. I don't think the game would have such massive coalitions if small gang pvp was more prevalent like it used to be. With the huge incomes of the major alliances as well as space just being totally useless, for the most part, there is really no incentive to beat down a roaming gang. Its much harder than it used to be, as well as theres much less incentive TO roam because theres a good chance you will just be wasting your time.

When Black legion roams, Elo is constantly trying to set up fights through his contacts. Random newbies don't have that same knowledge, so it creates a culture where we are basically playing Battlefield 3 in space. "Ok you guys bring 32 people, we'll bring 32 people, only 3 logi per, we will meet at such and such location"  I think that is the gayest thing I've ever heard.

Kismeteer:

POSes as a whole need revamping, of course, so I'm hoping they just ... go away. To take a system, you need 4 major battles. That's 4 times that you have to 'win' a time zone. While it's great in theory, in practice, it turns the game into work. It's pretty dumb, not to mention SBUs are bugged out. It's a trick that our enemies exploited for a long time, and we've just accepted it as part of the design mechanic.  

The fact is that you have to drop an SBU with a hauler, and then anyone can 'steal' the SBU by onlining it for themselves, UNLESS you take some sort of offensive action against it. This means that an honor guard, scrambling SBUS as they online, is recommended. That prevents the corp from being flipped. Not to mention that you can only hold 4 in a blockade runner, meaning that if you're doing a constellation, where you might need 12 or so, you are looking at 3 dudes doing work for about 45 minutes to get them all sbu'd.

Furthermore, all the sov stuff has to be brought up, AS A WHOLE, from CONCORD. Which is just a sheer :effort: thing. It just makes you want to kill yourself in the end. There really should be BPOs or BPCs, built on site, or nearby, to enable people to live away from empire. For like the drone regions, they have rely on lucky wormhole links with a freighter. I don't envy the people who live far from empire.

And finally, you cannot flip POSes to other alliances, or just GIVE TCUs to other alliances. Do you have any idea how much time is wasted waiting for sov to tick over to jump bridges, just to hand it over to another alliance? Yes, maybe it should be 'painful', but 35 days to WAIT for a system to get a jump bridge back is just stupid. When we finished off our war in the north, we had to shoot pointless structures for 2 more weeks, even though the enemy had given up.

It's terrible gameplay, because it's not gameplay.  It's shooting an NPC that doesn't shoot back.

XTTZ:

It’s a sobering point that in the last 2 years since Dominion, more regions have changed hands to internal alliance strife and one-sided wars than to honest, straight up fights with strategic planning behind them.

WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE

XTTZ:

What we need is a system that promotes a more fluid style of warfare, with multiple options available for attack and defense- rather than just shooting a big structure and showing up to fight over it. Contesting territory in sovereignty warfare should be a tug-of-war over day, weeks and months. It should not be a single fight stacked in favour of one side before it begins. This document aims to address a possible solution to these issues without needing to scrap the current system and start from scratch. Indeed, I strongly believe the existing core mechanics of Dominion can be salvaged into something fun and engaging with some tweaks and adjustments.

Kismeteer:

Moon mins are broken, period. CCP knows it's broken. Ring mining might fix it, and I kind of hope they just cancel moon mining entirely, and move it all to ring mining. I do actually sell more Technetium than anyone else in game so ... yeah. ISK is (or was) broken in several ways, and CCP knows this as well. L4 missions, the broken FW LP stuff, etc. People have stupid amounts of isk, and there are not enough isk sinks to counteract them.

BTW, in just the time we've been speaking, I made another 6.7 bil isk for the alliance. So tell me stuff isn't broken, huh?

Make people work to get it, sure, but you have to give some sort of life blood for corporations as a whole, rather than sponging off their members. If you don't give an income method for corps, that encourages corps to just pull undesirables into their ranks, like botters, etc.

Why bother upgrading systems and going through all that effort if your members can simply use highsec alts to make their ISK?

They need to hire one decent market person, who watches the markets, and understands the game. Then, when someone figures out the next big exploit, they nip it in the bud, not after they've flooded the market with 1mn Gistii mwd's (people used to sit in statics and just kill one dude, and loot just that). But the sheer fact that someone can for a week completely manipulate multiple markets, and their statisticians can't go 'hang on a second, why the hell is this fluctuating by 100x the price' and know what is causing it ... that is just a mystery to me. Things like the Dusk and Dawn duping of Technetium shouldn’t take 2 years to catch.

They need to overhaul systems they've been saying for years 'this is broken' - one dev (Fozzie) who actually (knows the game and) plays the game doesn't make a workable game. They still have the old stuff hanging out, like POS mechanics, which are goddamn terrible still. Why do I need anchoring 5. Oh yeah, because t2 large bubbles and POS gunning. Except POS gunning is a joke, at the very least pos guns need a MAJOR buff or you need XL guns (for them). I can't make a POS that can kill a single shield super and four supers can strip a POS bare in literally 20 minutes. That same POS might take 3 hours to setup. No matter how many dudes you throw at it.

Generally, I want the individual players lives to be better. Encourage people to PLAY the game rather than structure shots etc. Passive income in small amounts is great, risk and reward actually mattering is better.

Progodlegend:

There are advantages to the current system right now that allow for a large number of people to play with each other easily and allow for huge fights more often than was possible in the past. In my opinion the main issues with the game right now are force projection and the backwardness of attacking/defending. For the second one I mean there are very few disadvantages for the attackers, because the defenders get almost no advantage just for defending.

Heres what you do, you drastically, and I mean, drastically kill movement via cynos. All of this ties into the fact that giant coalitions having giant battles is happening way too often, and needs to happen way less than it is now.  How I would do it is anything jumping to a cyno and you give it a cool down of somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes.  During that cooldown it can't jump to another cyno of any kind. This doesn't apply to beacons because basically beacons are for defenders (homefield advantage). BUT to help balance that out you give the attackers away to disrupt beacons and jb's from the receiving side.

The conversation continued on voice comms, so I cannot directly quote what he said.  Basically, Progod went on to say that income sources should flip from top down (moon income) to bottom up (mining/ratting).  He was quite passionate that the loss of miners and ratting in null is the core of many of the problems currently in null sec.

Elise:

What I'd hate to see is them throwing out sov as it is now and just starting fresh (again). If you can make it so space is valuable and there are some good farms/fields, then people can roam space or want to defend space instead of losing a system and saying "eh fuck it I'll take it back later" or "didn't want that space anyway."

I think EVE players will always have wars, but it wont be for space or anything like that. Right now people start wars because of egos clashing or out of boredom. I think you can, relatively easily, augment the system so people will fight over space and have some sort of value in the space itself. Unfortunately the idea is not shiny or an automatic cure-all, but I think it's absolutely the most practical. Give space value, make alliance income work from the bottom up -  I think you will see  a rise in roaming fleets, new FCs, and a departure from the largest-scale fights that we see today.

I'm OK with giving people a reason to fight, but it shouldn't be as centralized as it is now. One region with a denser population is great, but all but like 20 moons are in one geographic location - a bit iffy. Ideally in a new system I like the idea of a strategic resource, but to get the value out of it you have to do some sort of action on it. I'm not saying fly out and empty the silo every 4 hours, but some sort of activity to harvest the resource rather than put up POS receive bacon. At Fanfest you get the term "ring mining" thrown out and this big grandiose ideas about them - so something like that for harvesting resources would be cool.

I would be happy if nullsec got an overpowered income source, just slightly OP, not like game-breakingly so, because it would help add value to the space, and the value is sorely lacking. Right now if someone is harassing a system a) I can just go to another system or b) log in my WH alt, my Incursion alt, my FW alt, my :insert fotm here: alt. When Incursions were broken, every alliance had an incursion corp or they just did highsec incursions. When FW was broken, every alliance had an FW corp.  So hey, shove some (disruptable) broken mechanic into nullsec when you are the iteration process.

A lot of people say it's because the nano-era died, roams died, but that's bogus because there are ships that are basically the same thing. Part of it has to do with Eve players become smarter, having a focused fleet doctrine instead of kitchen sink. The largest part of it has to do with having little to no need to protect space. Roaming used to be a big thing, roam into someones space and you disrupt ratting or whatever so someone forms a home defence gang and has a good ol fashioned brawl. You do see glimpses of this now, but it's a rare spectacle. A roaming force can't disrupt an alliance in a meaningful way, so there is no need to fight it. The alliance will make isk anyway so the line member doesn't necessarily need it as badly or the alternative is that the people who do make isk off of ratters/renters. They have so much space that's so desolate that one small force roaming around had a negligible impact on the bottom line. Also, there are other non 0.0 related income streams that are pretty fun. Like FW is legit fun, you can make buckets of isk PvPing. Null doesn’t have that.

It would be cool if you had a targeted bounty. There's a guy who recently left -A-, he was in White Noise before that, you probably know him: Lee Chanka.  His corp decided to move away from -A- and do their own thing, so they started a mini merc business. Give us money, we'll provide kills until the money runs out, so 10b fee up front and they vow to stay until they do 20b worth of damage.  It's working great, unfortunately there is no in-game mechanic to govern that, so it's all done through Chribba. We were Lee's first client and gave him 15b 5 days ago or so to harass -A- and at this rate he's going to be done by the weekend [this ended up being an accurate prediction].

To sum things up: there is far more agreement on what is right, wrong, and needs to be fixed in null sov across alliances than you might expect. Alliances large and small, from the ones with the most moon income to the ones without any agree that moon goo is broken. There is agreement that many of the problems in EVE stem from the switch from bottom-up income to the top-down income of moons. No one likes POSes and all spoke of a POS-overhaul like it was a foregone conclusion. A failure to overhaul POSes seemed unfathonable. None of them liked structure shoots, but all agreed that it was one of the only ways to draw a fight now. All agreed that system upgrades were a good idea, but system income was not substantial enough to truly warrant much effort on an alliance level. All agreed that, while the UI was improving, it still lacked a lot of mechanics which are needed on a coalition, alliance, or corporate level.

[name_1]
Bagehi began playing Eve in 2003 briefly, then returned in 2006. He has been part of IAC, NC, SoCo, and HBC during that time. He has a thing for history, but mostly spends his time IRL in a corner office, staring at financial reports, like a MMD.