POSes, Apocrypha, and Themes

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Hi-res OP image link pls
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legend
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I liked the idea of "dockable" poses as an option, but ovciously for fleet formation pos shields are needes. I like the idea of introducing tech 2 poses. Make them sprawling, dockable mini outposts that can be heavilu customized. Leavr the traditional poses as well.
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Excellent piece, I sincerely hope CCP devs read this and take heed.
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The new poses should obsolete outposts and current poses. Why is the outpost smaller than the player owned station? Why is their a difference in the first place? Couldn't this revamp also come with the much BEGGED for revamp to null industry? Couldn't these new poses also be used in the solution to sov warfare? Couldn't these be the farms and fields and valuable but low hanging fruit to bring meaning to small gang pvp? WHAT CRACK ROCKS ARE YOU SMOKING CCP THIS SHOULD BE PRIORITY 1!
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Run for CSM
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POS's are uninteresting, and only useful for certain things. That's why a small part of the player base uses them. I'll throw a bet that the largest users are Reaction Farms (working as intended) and wormhole corps (working, barely) .If you want a system completely different from the current one you are not looking for a revamp. you are looking for new features.The current system would be improved 100% just by the changing of how permissions are managed. Which is the single largest complaint about the POS system.
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You could say that what I discuss is a new feature, but I refuse to allow a bad design of the past forever lessen our creativity of the future.
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Very well thought out piece.
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We should be able to erect "real" monuments in Nullsec. Make 'em tourist attractions.
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I came to ask the same thing as "nice pichur". Thanks for the link, +5 Internetz for you.
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As has been said: excellent piece.You miss the natural riposte to CCP's talk of "only small numbers use POSes", however. The small size of the entrenched portion of the playerbase is a benefit to iteration; CCP can act as decisively as they wish in broadening the appeal and function of POSes. Sure, trillions of ISK have been poured into them by these players; but they've made trillions as well.
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I thought of that too. Make them massive material sinks and make them equally impressive. If players had a dev tool to create their own monuments and submit them like advanced alliance logos, I could see vast potential for amusing content.It would possibly serve as a conflict driver when someone came to try and destroy your space dick or shit on the massive statue of Mittens in Mittanigrad.
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So true...What if instead of crummy stations that no one felt attached to, people actually built empires themselves that they lived in. Two birds with one stone: all of a sudden everyone uses poses, and coalititions stop giving a crap about SOV but DO care about the station they've collectively built.
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Excellent write up, I want to play the EVE that you envision.
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All POS managers have a love/hate relationship with there POSs. Love the riches that come out but hate maintaining something that could be turned into space dust in a matter of days. I would LOVE it if they required less fuel/logistics and had larger silos. Is it unreasonable to have a large POS fuel bay hold 60 days of fuel? I would much rather be pew pewing than jumping fuel to a POS.
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Very well thought out article. The only possibility you don't cover, is "What if the stated reason CCP gives for not doing a pos expansion is absolutely not the real reason, not even close to the real reason?" If you take CCP at face value, than your reply is perfect...I just don't think they're being honest here, which makes your post still informative, but not quite complete.
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This is what i've been thinking. They can't come out and say it, but I think the reason is that a new pos rework just doesn't fit into the new design strategy. I think the amount of work needed for a pos redo just no longer fits into the personnel allotments that the new strategy of working on many things per release demands. And I think it misses by a lot. So much that they can't come out and say we will work on pos's each release, but under the new strategy it will now take 4-5 years to get them to where we all wish they will be. And there is now way they can go back now and change the strategy since I'm sure dozens of meeting where had, and careers put on the line to convince people this was the way to go.Basically the pos rework just doesn't fit in the new flow carts. And they can't throw out the flow charts now. Middle management strikes again!Edit: English
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I'm surprised such an important part of the game has been left broken for so long.
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How about this: instead of having to Haul Fuel in small amounts, trying to evade opposition, you could hire a Convoy of NPC Tankers to deliver a large amount -- but!! -- the route and time of departure of such a Convoy would be leaked to the Enemy?In a way, it would be kind of like a timer expiring, but instead of a static grind, initiated by the attacker, and a set-piece battle, it would be a running fight across multiple systems, initiated by the defender.
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"Eve Online: Exodus" was already an expansion with main theme being POSes and expansion of the Eve's population into null sec (and a big push for players to build "empires". This was the same expansion when formal alliances were implemented. I can see CCP being reluctant to redo the expansion theme that has been used in the past. A revamp of an existing feature is a bit difficult to sell as a new story. Just a devil's advocate take on the issue.
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The real reason they don't want to touch POSes is that have to clean up the abysmal permissions system first. Imagine patch day, no one can get at their stuff or worse corp and alliance assets become one big shared hangar.
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Lots of interesting little nuggets in there. I liked the idea of using a POS themed expansion to tackle current issues in the game. The sentence where you mention making one man POSes and making them relevant to fleet boosting is cool. Maybe mods on ships could be made to only provide a boost on grid but a POS system could be adjusted to have small structures that provide system wide boosts for a period of time, but can be probed out. Perhaps the limited fuel cloaking idea could be useful here, or simply an hour or two reinforce where the boosts are still active and a limited structure hp buffer once it's completed.There're tons of possibilities and anything that encourages the use of POSes (or whatever new structure system is added) as beachheads, exploration outposts and homes/monuments in conquerable space would be a great boon to the community as a whole. Feasibility is always an issue but I still can't help but think that CCP is missing the boat with their massive hard on for "themed expansions that affect everyone" idea.
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What if POes are the theme and they bork it? or it takes to long and they only have it half finished for the big release? and you have little else in the expansion? It would be called incarna 2.0, where at the least people would say its another useless expansion.POSes are a feature, granted a very big feature, intertwined into many areas of the game, but still just a feature.
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oh yeah, awesome pic
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Great Article. I absolutely agree on this. POSes are the single one most underdeveloped and disappointing feature in EVE currently. Also they are among the most exciting ideas in EVE at the same time. I was among those who wanted to own POSes, did Industry with them and got frustrated by the sheer amount of maintenance work i had to put up with the few others who were interested. The rewards were there, but in no way enough for the overhead we had to put in. So we dismounted that damn ting and went on to other endeavors. Outside of Powerblocks who can control the finest moons out there and cap production, its always a niche feature in terms of economic boon.
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For new features they need to be completely redone.
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I just want repping POS mods.
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*Facepalm*
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Which, of course, only makes POS mechanics a relic of 2004... how is that any excuse for not touching that again? Everything else in the game has been fairly dramatically changed over the years except POSes.
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They could easily call the next big theme 'Empires', include the pos-refactoring and offer us other ingame tools to build our empires, big and small in all locations and professions.

“War”, “Retribution”, “Wormholes”, “Avatars”. These are some themes of past EVE expansions. One thing that has come out of the minutes, and recent dev blogs is that CCP likes themes. Themes help tie things together and give a sense of cohesion to the various things that come out in a design cycle. They allow lines to be drawn and features to be decided upon. Themes are also marketable. Moving forward, instead of one feature or change being the big driving push of an expansion, they want a theme that touches on a broad swath of aspects of our interactive sci-fi universe.

One consequence that has come of this it seems pretty clear that Summer will not be the “Modular POS” expansion, nor will it seek to complete a revamp of the Null Sovereignty. Although they have been quick to point out in Two Steps new threadnaught that POS revamp is still on the table, it is likely to become a lesser push for CCP and will be spread across multiple development cycles (read: expansions). CCP has also stated that such an endeavor such as modular POSes would be very great, likely taking up an entire expansion, and that POS management only impacts a small section of the EVE playerbase.

And that is where the fatal flaw of their logic comes in. Right now only a small portion of the playerbase manages POSes, not because they are uninteresting, but because only a small portion has the tenacity to work with such a decrepit system. To put things in another light, “exploration” is a fairly minor profession in EVE. This was especially true prior to Apocrypha. What if CCP had said “wormholes are basically about exploration, and only a small number of people do that, so lets not worry about them”? We would never have had what CCP seems to feel is their most successful expansion of all time, and the model for their theme based development. As mentioned earlier, “wormholes” is but one theme of many CCP have tried, so what makes it so much more successful than themes such as War, or Retribution. “Wormholes” are a thing.

Instead of abandoning their idea of wormholes because they only address a niche interest, they thought about how it could impact a wider audience. “How will wormholes impact industry? How can we have wormholes impact combat? Null sec? The fleet meta?” These questions were asked and we got new materials, production, and Tier 3 cruisers out of it. The theme came from taking a thing and seeing how it could impact all aspects of EVE.

When features are added without this thought is when we get flops such as PI (which had some thought put into it and so is somewhat a viable feature), and Incarna (which had nearly no thought into this issue and was rendered completely irrelevant). Instead of an outside in approach defined by abstract themes such as “war” and “retribution” the idea of wormholes allowed them to design from the inside out, and piece together a cohesive, interdependent fabric.

So instead of spreading POSes across several themes and hope that in the end you have something cohesive and useful, why not make POSes THE THEME? Half of the work is done for you. POSes are already relevant to industry, production, and resource gathering, though all three systems could use some love. However, the exercise of making this relevant to other aspects becomes nearly trivial in nature. “How do we make POSes interesting to PVP?” Tie in to the POS situation the aspect of home systems, fleet boosting, and off grid boosting. Also, by making POSes more meaningful, you make them nicer targets, and facilitate further conflict points. “How do we make POSes more interesting to exploration?” Perhaps the smaller level of POSes could be one man affairs, like a small science research outpost explorers can bring with them to help analyze and study the mysteries they discover. These and others may not be the best of ideas, or even be what CCP should go with. Instead, they should serve to illustrate that once you think about it, the question of having POSes impact more than just a small portion becomes a non-issue.

One of the interesting question is how does POSes interact with nullsec empires? One of the primary themes of nullsec is the idea of building empires. Massive legions of troops fly into battle at the command of politically powerful leaders. Logistics chains are carefully maintained, meticulously tracked by spreadsheets and those who build them. These aspects are so important that CCP has coined new terms for these folks: Instigators and Enablers. Battle lines are drawn nightly, alliances between organizations are forged and shattered -  one can not argue that the aspect of player run empires is alive and well in Null. But one aspect of empire remains absent in EVE online: the majesty of its constructions, the icons and monuments to successes great and small. Imagine for a moment if, instead of scaling back module POSes, CCP shot to the stars. Modular POSes could be scalable, and powerful testimonies of alliance strength, cities in space, controlled, created, maintained, and destroyed by the players as the ebb and tide of war flows. New York City is a testament to the power of America not because of how much money flows into the stock market, but because of the pure grandeur of its skyscrapers, of its skyline. POSes could be expanded to show, through physical representation, exactly how much power, and hubris, an empire has.

One argument against radical revamp is that trillions of ISK worth of assets are already in existence built into, and protected by, POSes. This concern is a valid one, but there are solutions. For example one may call the new POS system “Tech 2 POS” and keep the old system in place for players. A new set of value added to POSes does not necessarily mean that the old system must be totally eradicated... though with an appropriately long phase-in period, it could be! None of these ideas would be easy. But that only points to the fact that it is perhaps time for this system to be given the development effort it deserves.

The idea of spreading POS revamp thin because it impacts a small group is a mistake. The greatest moments of EVE development were about how to take something that seems to be limited in scope, and expanding it to be interesting to the masses. Almost anyone who has played EVE for any amount of time has dreamed of owning a POS, and most only abandon that dream when they discover how much of a pain, for how little reward it is. And yet, many continue to try. Instead of shying away from the revamp do to the amount of effort it might take, I sincerely encourage CCP to press forward, with the idea that, due to the effort required, they better make damn sure it is useful to as many people as possible.

[name_1]
I have been playing the game *terribly* for right around two years. After a brief time in null, and longer stay in high, I have now entered into Gallente Faction Warfare and somehow landed a job as director of Aideron Robotics. I am still terrible.