Nerf Without Cause: Jump Drives

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Yes because we didn't conquer scalding pass before jump freighters or supercaps hardly existed, and didn't conquer detorid and tenerefis (and omist and feythabolis and paragon soul and esoteria) before we had any titans or supers of our own (and indeed in the face of plenty of hostile supers) or even that large of a cap fleet of our own or anything.The whole "you're just arguing this because it benefits your alliance" argument is dumb.
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... or CCP could make it so that 0.0 was able to be really self-supportive, including POS fuels. I fail to see why fuel should be a regional commodity and why changing it would be a bad idea.If (even) small alliances, holding just a few systems, were able to just life where they are without a real need of 'moving something in' the game could do without the jumping about of both logistics and battle fleets.Without (the need and capability) for jumps, owning territory will mean having enough people in the (border) systems to defend all of them in short notice instead of just maintaining one staging area somewhere in the middle, ready for blobbing the enemy in seconds despite the distance.
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Not the tools for power projection are the real problems. The conflict drivers are. Its easier to just eliminate all small and relatively independent entities during a huge invasion to get rid of future threats and to guarantee more safety for pve activities. I think unused systems should have insanely high bills to prevent that while used systems should be still profitable. That is one of the main reasons why I think the farms and fields concept is a good direction (and not further nerfing). And/or making possible to live in enemy territory when a coalition is over expanding and taking unnecessarily huge amount of unused space (for example with that cloaky pirate base thingy they mentioned in the last CSM minutes). CCP shouldn't remove the ability to project power effectively. They should remove the need to do it.
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Maybe it was novel the first time, even goons would be less enthusiastic the second or third or thirtieth...
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Due to the current limits of POS and nullsec stations you can't produce in null what you need to keep on living: ships and ammo. It needs to be imported. First CCP needs to fix industry, as sad as that sounds.
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yeah its hillarious lets remove jump drives and bridge altogether the only way goons would be able to exist would to be blue to everyone from EC to VFK and form a 250 man fleet to escort a freighter columnoh wait that would be piss easy for the CFC or the HBC and only another large bloc could threaten the logistics,TL:DR Changes that effect everyone do Fck all harm to large groups, and screw a little guy
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Confirming Redswarm pre jumpbridge nets did not control the whole south east oh wait
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and again would do sod all to the big alliances, i was in a CFC op over the weekends, FA bridged in via their own titan, RZR came from our space with our titan, big alliances can afford multiple titans and probably have themTL:DR forcing people to spend money dosnt hurt big alliances, small guys burn
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That's his point.
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Your assuming small allances don't have titans.... titans are everywhere, yes even small allance that don't own sov. have them, and nobody uses them in combat, they're POS trinkets. I don't actually think mega allances would form, and even if they did.... Whats the difference? Alliance like SMA, TnT, FA, Fcon are not independent allances, they just pertend to be.
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This just makes it hard on small alliances that rely on good intel and fast reactions to get to a fight, get some kills, and get out before the big lumbering coalition can react.
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As further reinforcement- imagine little guys like Black Legion and 401k living in Venal NPC space, completely surrounded by hostiles. It would be entirely too easy to interdict their supply routes if JDC were nerfed. Those little guys would have to leave entirely.
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Goons have literally camped a system 24/7 for a week straight multiple times. They'll sit on a titan for 2 hours then shoot a POS with no resistance.They'll have no trouble at all finding 150 masochists to escort a freighter.
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Making the sov bills for unused systems insanely high would not encourage me to allow hostiles to live next door. It would encourage me to leave the system unclaimed, and defend it as such.
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Can someone stop publishing Myanna articles pls
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What if different ships had different timers? Make it so carriers and dreads can spool up their jump drives much faster than supercarriers, titans, and jump freighters (and black ops battleships can jump even faster than carriers and dreads). Then your smaller alliance can jump in and jump out with their smaller, lighter force before the big boys can jump in and stomp them.
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Nice article Mynna.I disagree, consider if Jump Range were infinite everything would be imported from the best manufacturing space, nothing would be made locally, it would suck.With no jump bridges you have to make everything locally and (relying on a null revamp to make this possible) and then it's all about making ships and using them to attack the enemies ship yards (which has been discussed here at length).Titan bridging shrinks the battle space to a point, it's boring, it's just who's got the bigger fleet, interest is when two equal fleets collide.It should be all about tactics, positioning, splitting your forces, leading people on wild goose chases, picking off stragglers and reinforcements, &c but all of this is destroyed by the titan's power. It just becomes communally watching a you-tube channel.A naval commander who plays EVE told me the navy made the shift from big fleets to small tactical groups sent to accomplish a specific objective. EVE would be hugely improved if it made a similar shift.Everything you have written is based on the idea the importing is a fact of life, I would really like to see a null revamp where it was a bonus but not necessary at all.Null sec should be about empires who support themselves on their own production and fight those around them.
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The fix to capitals has always been simple, and it doesn't have to break 0.0 logistics (which I do).The simple fix comes from Battlestar Galactica... A Jump Timer.Decouple jumping from capacitor. You jump, a 10 minute timer starts. When you hit 0 you can jump again.Simple.The goal is simply to make large empires unsustainable, so there is less empty space, and numerically more alliances with space.
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That's a good point. See what I mean? Unintended consequences.
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How does this solve anything? Large empires will benefit from this and the small guys with less capitals will be the ones hurt
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I agree that it would make it harder on small alliances if they are trying to use guerrilla tactics on getting in and out quickly. It also would probably make it so smaller alliances wouldn't commit capitals to fights as often because with the jump cool down timer you would guarantee your death if the fight goes poorly.
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Agree with the OP, Power projection cannot be solved with a nerf to jump range removing JBs or titan bridges. In my opinion what CCP could do to address this issue is to delay power projection making it a less viable option for larger groups. CCP should introduce new game mechanics that delay power projection making it time consuming to perform and without affection the logistic operations or small alliances in the process. For example:1. Introduce a cool down timer for subcaps that use a titan bridge. Now that we have these nice visible timers in the top left corner of the client, why not create a new one for bridge, let’s say that you can only use a bridge once every x minutes due to "subspace anomalies that prevent a new bridge jump in less than x minutes".2 There should be a total separation of the ship cap from the jump drive cap, the ship cap should not matter for jump purposes nor your cap skills or the mods you use to recharge cap; jump drive cap should always recharge at the same rate and bigger the ship more cap it needs before it can jump again, taking more time to recharge. Only way to do an instance Jump Drive cap recharge would be to dock up, this way leaving small cap groups, logistic and mining capitals out of this "nerf". [Now if only CCP could deploy more stations in NPC 0.0 and low sec so these people can have more options for middle point jumps and places to dock up...]
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The issue with that is big alliances with lots of resources could simply swap out ships to continue moving resources or fleets at the same rate they can under current mechanics. All that really does is further encourage more supers and super ready characters being sucked into large alliances and coalitions and would do very little to help the little guy in the long run.
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Yea. I don't understand this collective delusion. War is not fair. I don't understand why a sandbox game that allows for large scale war simulation would be fair.It seems like there's a good chunk of the EVE population that wants EVE to be a space version of team v. team modern warfare.Perhaps DUST will scratch their itch. I don't know.
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Just going to post this people are saying that ice should not be regional. I agree but I would take it one step further remove it from space and put it on planets. Lets make it a form of PI and how your refine it determines what race can use it. Would cause an increase in the cost of fuel which is good and stops Hi Sec AFK Ice miners at the same time.
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This is bullshit, not everyone has titans. I run a ~200 man alliance trying to scrape together a fighting force and we lack a titan. This argument isn't pointed at the lesser alliances of the mega coalitions, it's pointed at the little startup alliances that are trying to compete without being sponsored into null. So shove your "titans are everywhere" line, they are most definitely still a barrier to entry.
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Changing jump freighter's ability to jump instantly off an undock before they're out of dock range would drastically impede logistics across the game as pilots become unwilling to risk their ~7b defenseless ship.
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Mass limits are an interesting idea. A game mechanic where short life wormholes with set destinations can be created would be neat but it's far too late for that to be any sort of replacement for the cyno mechanic. It would be fun training Dimensional Tearing V though...
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They might be interesting but as a "solution" they suffer the same problem as range nerfs.
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While this article is entirely correct, your post is infact false. With out titans many of the roles your just mentioned (recon and ambush) would be take over by the ready existent Black Ops ship categories. This is entirely different from the Big Vs Small argument (Aka, I suck at Eve nullsec) and is much more akin to the HAC vs Tier3 issue where there are very simular in-game roles for Black Ops which SHOULD be the recon/ambush force of any alliance and where force multipliers are good thing. The issue is that currently all BLOP roles are better done by other conventional forces given a Titan bridge. DPS? Conventionals do that more cost efficiently.Tank? Conventionals always tank better than BLOP versions. Range & Scale? You can bring in a massive amount of conventionals over a much greater distance with a Titan bridge.Sure mostly there should be a large advantage to conventional such as in tank capabilities and the current DPS capabilities of BLOPs is more than adequate (except for maybe strat cruisers). The biggest imbalance at the moment is the range. Why would you bring in 30 BLOP ships only 3-5 jumps when you could force project half the CFC at triple the range? It's like the Paratroopers in WWII if the D-Day invasion force could have been dropped directly into Berlin tanks and all.Nerf or no nerf, this is an imbalance that WILL have to be faced eventually, and if done correctly, could give smaller alliances a way to harass the bigger alliances without having to become CTA cannon fodder just to get into the Nullsec game.
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Don't blame the titans for this mess, already titans are just reduced to taxi drivers. Null sec isn't good enough to do stand alone industry to be independent on empire production, We import alota stuff. I see this more as for those who don't want to spend three months to max skill their jump skills as being whining. With how pos's are and corporate roles so old code its very difficult to permit people in corps to do their industry without having the "keys to the kingdom" when they just want to build stuff and make it up in null. Far safer to just stay in empire to do that other than capitals. Titans should be really scary dps machines that are deterrent for other sovs aggression. The fact is big or small need to get ehir goods from empire space and nerfing jump capability just hurts the small sov/alliance/corps.
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large empires unsustainable..... wut?CFC and HBC are massive.. but still have a very good system:player ratio.
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Of course. It's an entirely redundant idea as it suffers from all the same pitfalls as cynos and really isn't all that different of a mechanic. I just thought it was cool and the mass limit got me thinking of wh mechanics. The only difference would be that maybe to differentiate this type of mechanic from cynos is an element of instability, so range wise it might be better but it might spit you out in a different system but in the same constellation. And whs right off of structures seems odd so the entrances and exits would be created in deep space. But I digress...Personally I don't think there is a solution, if you use game mechanics to make logistics shitty, time consuming or expensive for one group you make logistics shitty, time consuming or expensive for everyone.
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Rather than nerf jump ranges, or have a cooldown between jumps, why not have a targeting delay after jumping - say for anything bigger than a carrier, or perhaps for all ships based on the range of the jump. Strategic movement would still be possible for both large and small, freighters or non-combatants could still go about their business. There would most likely be more sub-cap fights, and (some of) the excesses of hot-dropping might be avoided.
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Isn't it usually a excess when on the receiving end of a hot drop? If you dont have the titan or black op battleship you point out that its unfair to do? Pilots spent ALOT of time learning those skills.
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Before Test decided to go bigger, a lot of small somewhat independent alliances lived in their neighbourhood (Walltreipers and Omega Vektor just to mention a few or the last year's delve thunderdoom is a perfect example). Of course setting foothold close to big entities' staging systems would be hard but there are a lot of backwater systems which noone cares about. The only reasons why big alliances taking those because there is no reason to leave blind spots in the middle of their blue ocean.If big entites would go for systems only with strategical importance and good resources, than there would be too many unclaimed systems to care about and it would be hard to keep away everyone all the time. They would rather try to find diplomatic solutions with those small entites which could lead to another blueball but that kind of blueballs would be a lot more vulnerable than the current ones with a lot more drama, backstabbing and metagaming which is exactly what nullsec needs more.But even if a big entity would decide to keep away others from those unclaimed systems, thats where that cloaky pirate base comes to the picture. Just think about that cloaky pirate base with jump drive what a dev mentioned in the CSM minutes at the pos section. I can't get out of my head the idea to be able to live in the middle of a hostile territory (of course with limited options but still). If seomeone's home system is under heavy attack they could just retreat to hidden POSes and wait till they leave and than taking back everything.I think something like that could work without the need to nerf power projection. Small and large entities living side by side with conflicts every day but without the ability to threaten each others existance.
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Venal is already a PITA to get to with a JF as it stands. Nerfing JDC would be a death knell for Venal residents.
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Test is terrible at Eve, so we actually do quite a lot BlOps work. Have a look at Dingo's kills. He's all over the map hitting stuff with BlOps/CovOps. If CCP flipped things, making it far easier to move CovOps with greater range and easing of fuel issues while making it tougher with titans, I wouldn't complain. I think it would scale combat better. However, HBC/CFC would just stick a couple more titans along the route. No sweat (as Mynna pointed out in the article).
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Worse, because of the threat of being dropped on, titan pilots tend to prefer the safety of being blue with a bunch of other super pilots who will counterdrop to save their butt if worst comes to worst. So, small alliances have trouble obtaining and then holding onto titans.
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Jump drive range is fine. The movement of small groups of capitals is fine. The problem is with the movement of larger groups of capitals. A small entity requires 1 cyno to move 5 supers. A large entity requires 1 cyno to move 200 supers. Logistically, larger entities have an EASIER time of logistics than smaller ones. The nerf needs to be to the cyno, not to the jump drive. If a mass limit was added then jump freighters, carriers and dreads would be unaffected. Only _large_ blobs of supers would require additional work.
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Goons used to do it all the time. Do you remember the Dominion freighter fleets? Days of hauling POS crap back to empire to pick up sov structures to haul back to null with groups of supers licking their lips, eager to drop on the freighters. If I recall, Goons were running both a freighter haul op as well as freighter hunting ops constantly for a good a week.Few would be happily x'ing up for freighter protection duty, but fleets would insta-fill for freighter hunting ops. Smaller groups would be screwed, constantly folding because massive quantities of stuff would just die when their freighter run failed.
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Yeah, no more ninja reinforce or gank fleets unless you have a bunch of backup and are just hoping someone counterdrops you. It would just be a way that HBC/CFC bait out capital targets.
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Have you seen the dread fleets CFC has been able to field? It would just be a nerf to supers without an upside. I'm one of the first to get excited about nerfs to supers, but they are only a good thing when it causes more supers to die. That would just force them to go dormant until a year down the road when some lead dev accidently gives them some horrendous exploit because they forgot how many of the damn things are in the game and were lulled into a sense of complacency from the reduced use of the ships.
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http://themittani.com/features...Progod spoke at length about it. I'll shoot you the raw transcripts if you want.
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I agree. They should have fixed 0.0 industry instead of having people jumps lightyears in seconds to make the place bareable.And I really hope CCP someday will return on this decision.
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You are joking, I hope.Did you ever open the star map and look at how many pilots were in a system in the last 30 minutes?Try it some day: almost all of null is virtually empty. Except for the few system where people are apparently cuddling around jump facilities, waiting for something to blob. Good system:player ratio indeed, but a bad player to system ratio.
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Unfortunately, CCP so far has tended to go for easy 'fixes' that create as many problems as they solve. The problem is that even out in Cobalt Edge, where you need six cyno characters to make a jump freighter route from lowsec to the capital at E-BY, it still is more efficient (and often quite simply necessary) to manufacture in and import almost everything from highsec rather than produce locally, because the materials necessary to manufacture are unavailable. Until the nullsec low-end mineral bottleneck is fixed, there will be no large-scale industry in null, aside from supercapital production.Supposedly, CCP has 'models' that predict player behavior; these models of course led them to believe that nerfing small alliance income would allow those alliances to buy and lose more ships, so their reliability is rather questionable. But I hope whoever makes these 'models' considers what happened to drone region industry before and after Greyscale's alloy nerf.
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Your implying it's any different now? You need to suck goon or test dick at the moment to get into null, and what I suggest would make it no different? It's almost as if you don't have a grip on realitys of the game as it is...... everyone is NIP'd up, the leaders of alliances don't play eve as a game but what they can get from the game, null is a player versus structure game.
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...making an event like BOB's dissolution by the original Goons easier, thank you try again :)
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How is that any different then it is right now?lol.... you guys keep saying it would be bad because something that is a reality in game now. I don't think for a moment you guys want to change the game, as it would mean you would lose your topdog status.
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Fucking clowns, don't insult everyone intellegents by pertending you give a shit about the little guys, all the power in the game in in the hands of the most passive group of carebears, and the status quo is the best scenario you could hope for, this is why you will never hear any of them call for change unless it helps them.The guy pertending to be from the 200 man alliance with no titan was a nice touch, but nobody is buying it.
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Yes, I was also just about to post this.The thing with jumpfreighters is that people need to import too much.If that 300 man alliance could adopt 20 indu guys and live from 4 jumpfreighter runs a month, filled with moon goo and faction modules, just defending the freighter midpoints in hostile territory during a normal roaming fleet op would start to become a usable alternative.
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I respectfully disagree with this comment and would like to cordially invite the author to eat his own face.
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It's spelled pretending you mongoloid fuck.
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"intellegents""pertending"Yeah I'll certainly listen to you.
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For a alliance that can easily field dozens of supers in 5 minutes or less that is not a problem either. Light cyno with a bomber, 10 carriers jump in and light cynoes themselves. Problem solved. People do that nowadays to have a stable cyno that does not die anyway.
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Oh hey, nullsec is empty cause for pure ISK making low-sec and high-sec are better. When people get a call on their OOG channels to form a fleet they log off their isk making alts and log their 0.0 mains in.
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Why is it ~Elite PVPers~ are almost all collectively illiterate as fuck and have a fascination with cocks?I make no claims about being good at writing, but at least I use my spell check and make some feeble attempt at basic sentence structure, punctuation and grammar.
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When -A- hotdroppd 17 supers on the K-6 station in delve, the PL supercapital FC lit a cyno on his titan to get the rest of the counter-drop fleet in.
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Who are elite PvPers?
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Make a cyno an anchorable object. Perhaps a few variations even, with reasonable amounts of EHP scaling with their anchor time. The cyno has to be broadcast after being anchored, and once broadcast works just like cynos currently.Something like this may help with possible imbalances of current mechanics. In this manner you wouldn't simply be able to light a cyno with a super to provide a nearly invincible(for the most part) cyno. You would have the option of targeting the cyno structure in a fleet fight to prevent incoming support. This may actually be better in that you would actually have time to kill the cyno before things jumped to it.With this you would have a little bit of indication that things were escalating, and everyone would be a bit less susceptible to the massive gank-drop, at whatever the scale.Moving JFs and logistics wouldn't be hurt very much, other than needing to wait @ whatever amount of time it would take to complete anchoring the cyno. And throw-away cyno ships would no longer be needed.
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Yes, everyones native language is english
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Overall, I understand the idea that people have problems with the incredible mobility of large cap ship fleets. I agree, even - large fleets of carriers, dreads and super's are able to project power far too quickly for my tastes.But reducing jump range is not the solution.While it has its own problems you could put some sort of mass limit to how many ships can be bridged to a system in a given time period. Once you've hit the mass limit, you get shut down. I also think that completely reversing the titan dynamic, so that they bridge people TO them rather than FROM them could make a difference.Create a powerful anti capitol ship weapon, and put it on a fragile chasis like a stealth bomber. Create a third tier of stealth bombers that is able to fit a dreadnought sized weapon and give it a fat, fat damage bonus. Add a MASSIVE multiplier to Void Bombs (or all bombs) when used against Carriers, Dreads or Supers.If you want to balance cap ships, I think you can best do so by increasing the risk equation of them sufficient to balance out their mobility and power projection benefit.
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My name is islador, I run FELON (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp... which is the founding corp of Sadistica Alliance (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alli... a 224 member alliance WITH NO TITAN. No joke bro, not everyone has a titan!
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With his ethnocentric remark i'm gonna take a wild guess and say he's american, most americans think everyone should speak perfect english, and if you don't you are stupid. In many country, almost everyone born there my age is bilingual. I'd be suprised if more then 1/4th of the young people that were born in the states are bilingual, yet it's everyone else that is stupid for not knowing perfect english.
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I see Blopdrops in low-sec on a fairly regular basis. They're scary as all hell precisely because there's nothing quite like them in low-sec. They have their role (surprising gate camps that stick around for longer than they should, mainly), but there's no reason that they should be anything more than relatively small-scale.You can't really compare them to bridging, which is about the delivery of large-scale combat forces to a distant location rather than strictly being about an element of surprise.
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You can nerf excessive power projection (like defending a pos on one side of eve, and then being on the other side within an hour), without also nerfing logistics.
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So youre saying we should make small groups cometitive? and make it harder for bigger groups? you are saying that a a small amount of player have more fun in return greater groups gets probem and lose some fun?great idea^^
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Lol at nerfing to 15%. The idea is to make subcap fleets project actually faster than those with jump calibration.Use capitals for tactical attacks when defending your home or taking someone else soveregnity (foothold and system by system progressing. Not jumping from your HQ to enemies in like 15 mins).Leave the JF (with a bonus maybe) like they are now. Leave black ops like they are now and they d have some more meaning.If u want fun roams like all normal players do, dont sit whole nights on Titans. There are enough of targets in NPC nullsec to have fun with. And If u dont find any targets closer than u should maybe rethink of blueing 90% of Nullsec
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TL;DRMalcanis' Law strikes again
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You say a lot about how things "should" be, which is all well and good. The problem is, you don't talk about how to get there. Saying null should be about empires that support themselves sounds wonderful, but currently it's not feasible at all to do so.How would EVE be improved by people only using tactical groups? How would this be different? People would just bring more numbers. EVE is a numbers game, and you can't change that without drastically changing the game itself to the point where it'd no longer be a sandbox game.General ideas are good, but ultimately useless without any concept on how to achieve those ideas.
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Comparatively safe lowsec. mynnna are you high and do you not watch freight club ownzoning lowsec jf's wherever they go? I want increased jump range, shit. Midpoints are terrible. Also give blops better bridge/jump range tia.
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Get out.
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Make coherent arguments or you're getting moderated back to the stoneage, retard.
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Thank you for doing my job.
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reading comprehension.
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The issue with every suggestion you made is that it has as much, if not even more, of an effect on these hypothetical smaller groups as it does on the larger established coalitions. There's not a single thing that you just came up with that couldn't be exploited by the larger alliances to the great detriment of a smaller target.If I were to come up with counter solutions, just off the top of my head, I'd say the best approach would be to create mechanics that encourage and enable alliances to use less space, and thrive in the space they own. So, let's say have a system upgrade that allows 0.0 alliances to install agents in their stations, thereby making the possible PVE earnings of null as scalable as high sec. Then making a bunch of tweaks to the null sec industry, much like Mynnaa has spoken of in other articles, so that there's less need to leave the space you own. Finally, add some sort of POS mechanic, or JF mechanic that allows logistics pilots to travel almost without worry. BUT make those logistics routes vulnerable to being cut, maybe even by somewhat smaller gangs, thus requiring a defence/repair effort on the part of the entire alliance.What would be the advantage of carebearing up nullsec? Well, if more people use their space that means there's more targets in space to shoot. If there is great wealth to be made without sprawling out, there's less reason to hold on to vast swathes of space. Plus, if you're in a small alliance and you manage to carve out your own little piece, you are more capable of building up the strength to survive. In addition, if it's not necessary to depend on the allies in your surrounding space for everything you do, you might find that a lot of the current allies in the larger coalitions really don't have all that much in common with each other.Obviously, this isn't a perfect plan. I just pulled it right out of my ass. There would need to be considerations for conflict drivers. What motivates Alliance A to decide to invade Alliance B? There has to be something in Alliance B's space that Alliance A wants. I said to make JF logistics something that happens almost without worry, but we don't want to lose those delicious JF kills completely. So they can't be completely invulnerable. People need to be able to make mistakes, and an opportunistic hostile needs to be able to capitalize on those mistakes.I also forgot to mention moons, which would need to be adjusted to be less of an isk geyser, but still be worth fighting over. I could keep going, but I'm tired, and in all reality I doubt anybody will actually read this anyways. It's wordy enough as it is.The end point is that instead of trying to nerf specific game mechanics, such as capital ships, the goal should be to adjust the game design to encourage the behaviour you want to see, while still allowing anything enterprising and motivated groups can come up with.
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When I proposed a change to cyno mechanics I took a totally different perspective circumventing nearly all of your arguments since they all relate to logistics.I would change it so that combat capits (supers dreads and carriers) would no longer be able to use a jump drive only in sovereignty space. Jump freighters and black ops would act the exact same. Empire low and NPC null would see no changes. Then I would add the ability for an alliance to anchor two cyno generators in a sufficiently upgraded system letting alliances and their blues jump combat ships back and forth freely. This would lower the ease that capitals are able to instantly drop into any fray anywhere with no warning and make them more vulnerable. My final change would be a change to titan bridges, making it so a titan can be jumped both to and from when connected to a jump bridge, making a titan into a ship that is most effective when deployed on the front lines of any invasion.
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Small alliances should have a place in 0.0, this is a bigger topic then merely jump range, it is too easy to blame a single issue. There are far too few people willing to do the legwork to get themselves and their alliance established in 0.0, Goonfleet was once such an entity itself but people fail to take this into consideration, It took a long time and many failed ventures to bring them where they are today and it is paying dividends.Any real reward, be that in real life or spaceship-games comes from succeeding in spite of adversity rather than having things handed to you.
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Also know as the inverse Malcanis law
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uhh, islador is pretty well known, and if you'd ever met him in person, you'd say "yup, that sounds just like him"
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Trying to compete with north korea?If someone doesn't agree, or makes a suggestion that doesn't support blob warfare you "try" to not keep them from commenting ever again? Your a very said person.
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Random proposal from someone who doesn't know much about the subject... nerf jump drives, add a +jump range bonus per level to jump freighter hulls. That would nerf force projection without nerfing logistics.Or make a module that only fits on jump freighters, that halves the cargo hold but doubles the jump range.It's worth repeating that I really dont know much about the subject, but I'm sure that people who do know more would be able to come up with lots of ways to seperate force projection from logistics and nerf one without nerfing the other.
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Great response man, I too sport a neckbeard, we are bretherin, lol.Ok so basically the revamp would need three phases.Phase one, null industry revamp, many more low ends in null, take the rats out the belts, make super ores which yield massive amounts of minerals, make refining easier and add loads of refining slots.Phase two, tactical revamp (all of this program is tied up with a POS revamp program but could be done without it). Make it so a small force attacking a target can shut it down temporarily, camping the ore belts of your enemy for example. Or if they're refining in a pos if you do 10% damage to that POS the refining is cancelled, also if they're manyfacturing you can shut it down.Maybe if you do 25% damage to a POS it spits out some of it's contents, ships, ores etc. So it's really worth a small force coming into your space and attacking you.Phase three, nerfs, nerf HighSec's industrial potential (easiest with a big tax on everything done in a station in HighSec and make POS's there really expensive), nerf the range of jump drives severely.Moreover get rid of sov completely, you own space if you live and work there. If, of all the jumps in and out in 24 hours more than 90% were yours the system is tagged as belonging to you, if 50%+ were it counts as your's but contested. Therefore no more sbu's, no more timers or structure grind.This would mean you would have to make everything locally, which would be really easy, but in the process you would be opening yourself up to attack, your miners would be out there and industials would be flying around moving ores and goods.So then the best way to cause a failiure cascade is to attack repeatedly with small forces. 10 battleships roaming 23/7 in your space would destabilise your industrial base and cause your alliance to fall apart. This would mean you would need militias to get out there and protect your industrialists as they worked to replace your losses.Basically industry becomes the constant conflict driver null needs.This is the plan as I see it, a lot of other people have suggested similar things, though there are other ways it could be made to work.Hope this helps (and that you come back to read this, lol)
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Again, this would mainly hurt smaller groups. If caps could only jump once per 10 minutes, the wealthier/larger groups could easily get around the problem by parking extra capitals and fuel supplies in more stations from where they ca strike different areas. All you'd accomplish is that the ping for a cap fleet would need to go out a few minutes earlier to compensate for the time to go from staging system to cap parking X via titan bridge, cov ops or nullified T3.
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Nope, we're trying to foster intelligent debate, not horseshit en24 cesspool behavior.
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Confirming........... making fun of peoples grammer is now considered "intelligent debate"
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The issue is that highsec is accessable from sov
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Running it through a grammar check is as easy as using google docs. I'm talking about all the nonsense between the first sentence and the last phrase.
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If somehow whether by removing cynos or nerfing them somehow (leaving jump freighters intact) were to happen then defending a large area of space would be much harder. Lets say for a second the CFC had divided their capital fleet into many smaller ones each covering a 6 jump area of their space. Then lets say for example a smaller alliance with a decent sized fleet attacked one of the areas protected by one of these fleets. Then both sides would face an even numbered battle. If reinforcements were sent to the defenders from other parts of the empire then that opens gaps that could be exploited by someone else. Suddenly geography actually matters in eve and warfare became a whole lot more interesting. Coalitions would be far less effective since the ability to back up your allies would be greatly diminished. Empires would probably shrink and lesser alliances could move in and not be quickly wiped out in a week because much more effort would need to be spent dispatching them. Small gangs start roaming, fights are had without planning fights between "enemies" and everybody wins.Imagine for a second if the romans had cynos and titan bridges. When a barbarian tribe attacked every single roman soldier could teleport in and the entire roman army would surround and destroy the enemy with little effort. We would still be speaking latin. Cyno's are one of the stupidest things in eve and the only good thing about them is jump freighters.
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"A few extra accounts for more cyno alts, more prepositioned fuel stocks, all things that PL can afford."And that is why CCP will nerf Jump Drives. More alts will equate to more money and thus increasing their revenue stream. As logical and solid as your counter points maybe the reality is CCP will nerf Jump Drives by telling everyone they want to restore "balance" but the reality is they understand that it will only drive subs higher and thus make them more money.

An oft-repeated line these days is that power projection in EVE is just too easy. Titan bridges, jump bridges and jump drives all combine to make the establishment and defense of super-empires too easy. This, in turn, makes it difficult for small groups to compete.

Today, I'd like to take a look at one of those elements in particular: the jump drive. Thanks to jump drives, capital ships of all kinds can cover great distances with ease. Massive forces can be moved across the galaxy with leapfrogging titans, while enormous logistical undertakings are trivialized thanks to jump freighters. Clearly, if we reduce the range, the amount of space held by powerblocs will necessarily shrink, allowing smaller groups to live and thrive.

Or so proponents of such changes claim. I happen to think otherwise. Nerfs to jump drives would, in fact, have little meaningful impact on those larger groups and only increase the burden on a notional small group of newcomers.

Space Truckin'

An analogy often provided by proponents of a jump drive nerf is the real life movement of warships. Without fuel and other supplies, those warships don't move, and their support fleets of subcaps are badly equipped or non-existent. That makes logistics the most important thing potentially affected by these ideas. In the current state of EVE, everything is imported, from ships, to guns, to ammo. Even in a far future, where locally available low ends combined with good production facilities may allow for easy production, importation will still likely be required. Fuel for POSes and capital ships is regional and so must come from elsewhere. Unless CCP goes so far as to make all moon materials available everywhere (which would be a bad change for other reasons), Tech II production would continue to require regional moon products. Whether you opted to run the production chains yourself or skip the effort and buy from Empire, you're moving something in, most likely by Jump Freighter.

So let us present a scenario. You're the head of a close-knit three hundred pilot alliance, small by most standards but able to punch well above your apparent weight class thanks to high participation. Well aware of the necessity of logistics, you've taken it upon yourself to handle them, with your trusty maxed out Rhea alt. You set your sights on your alliance's new home: Period Basis. Opposition is light - the larger alliances in the prime space to the north (and your future roaming targets) seem uninterested. Before long, you've settled into your new capital, TPAR-G, and pop open a jump planner to start your logistics work.

Well versed in good logistics practice, you know what to look for: A lowsec point to jump into, with a highsec route straight to Jita. A few likely candidates appear - Efa, Ashmarir, Nourbal. But you have a problem. Cynoing a jump freighter into anything but a station is quite risky, yet required. You've already had plenty of good fights shooting those to the north, so they're not about to let you dock. A POS will be required, and it will be surrounded by hostile space - the most direct route to any lowsec endpoints pass through two midpoints in Querious. Despite what is often decried as an excessive jump range, you can't even take the option of going through NPC Delve to avoid hostile midpoints! Doing so requires a midpoint in hostile space both before and after 319-3D, and adds an extra jump as well.

Suddenly, indescriminate raiding of your northern neighbors seems like it might have been a bad idea. All the high participation and PvP skill in the world do you little good when you your midpoint POS are constantly being attacked, your freighter under perpetual threat of "nyncing".

It's a good thing, you think to yourself, that Jump Drive Calibration is a 25% per level bonus. Why, if CCP listened to the forums and dropped it to 15%, you'd have to make four jumps instead of three, operate and defend three midpoint POS in hostile territory instead of two.

Cherrypicking

At this point, I'm sure many readers would like to point out that I'm OBVIOUSLY cherry-picking regions to make a point. They'd be half right - I am trying to make a point. The point is that even today, with the supposedly "excessively long" jump ranges there are many areas of space which can be cut off logistically from Empire by their neighbors. As a result, anyone living in those areas has a couple of choices. They can suck it up and try anyway, hoping they don't get ganked, or that they're able to defend their midpoints against the hostiles surrounding them. Or, they can blue up to guarantee safe passage, which rather defeats their reason to be there in the first place.

Coming back to the cherrypicking accusation, however. What I've illustrated here is by no means limited to the Delve/Querious/Period Basis area. Let's take a trip north, though we'll leave the story behind.

A Trip Around the Clock

We'll start first in Deklein, my home. Life is good. Access to Empire from the capital of VFK is just two jumps. We're surrounded by allies, but even if they were enemies, it'd be no matter - both of those jumps can be plotted through comparatively safe lowsec.

At least, they can be right now. Knock the JDC skill to 15% per level and, well... we're lucky. It now takes three jumps instead of two, but the NPC systems of Pure Blind are far more conveniently located than those of Delve, and our extra midpoint can be located there. So, we're fine. But the point of these nerfs are smaller empires, so let's play along and pretend Deklein is split in half. A belligerent alliance controls the more northward section, with a capital in 3JN9-Q. As it turns out, they'd better not be too belligerent - their jump paths in this scenario must go through either Fade or our own portion of Deklein. They'll be making friends with someone or risking their Jump Freighters every trip they make.

And to the residents of Branch, based out of BKG? It's ugly for them. Even now, a stop over in Tribute or other player-held space is unavoidable, and it only gets worse with 15% per level.

Lets leave the North and move around to the Drone Regions. This is where things to get a little absurd. It's not readily apparent on the nice flattened out maps of Eve, but the Drone Regions are extremely isolated. You can make it to a nice jump-in point such as Frulegur in just one jump from L4X-IV, but that's exceptional. Frulegur is two jumps from 1ACJ-6 in Etherium Reach (with the midpoint in L4X-IV), It's the same two jumps from Kalavela's HVGR-R, with the midpoint in either Geminate or right next door to L4X-IV. Residents of NBW-GD in Malpais make it to Frulegur in three jumps, and get to bargain with the owners of LXQ2-T instead. Residents of Oasa's FJ-GUR make the same bargain and must contend with the residents of their other midpoint in Perrigen Falls. And those poor boys in Cobalt Edge, living E-BYOS, get to pick. Four jumps through either L4X-IV or Geminate, or five through LXQ2-T, but they've got two hostile midpoints either way.

And in our nerfed jump drive world? L4X-IV is suddenly two jumps from Frulegur. 1ACJ-6 adds a hop, albeit in lowsec. Residents of the HVGR-R area now make either three jumps through LXQ2-T and Geminate, or four down through L4X-IV, and those in NBW-GD have the same choice. Four or five jumps for our FJ-GUR dwellers, and five or six for those in E-BYOS.

The More Things Change...

I could continue clockwise through regions such as Cache, Detorid, Omist, and Feythabolis, but I think the point is made. Logistical concerns alone already encourage groups to either control far reaching chunks of space to guarantee supply lines, or make nice with those who are closer to Empire, and nerfs to Jump Drive range would only exacerbate this problem. Small groups may well thrive, as they do now, but they won't be alone. After all, what is a power bloc but a grouping of smaller entities?

Wardriving

How about those warships I said we'd come back to? People argue that big nullsec groups can effortlessly move across their own space in just a single jump or two, trivializing its defense, and have no problems with making trips across Eve, for they know that they can make it back before an attacker can do serious damage. Admittedly, they're correct about that - with proper preparation, moving capital forces around is relatively straightforward. Their natural conclusion is the same as before - if only the jump range were shorter, holding space would be harder and smaller groups could compete!

It should be obvious that I disagree with this idea as well. Forcing our capital forces to make another jump or two to move around our space won't dissuade us from holding more space. We'll simply spend the extra resources and move on with our lives. Likewise, a jump drive range nerf won't dissuade someone like Pandemic Legion, famed for their ability to rapidly move capital forces across Eve. Their recent move to Uemon would have required at least six jumps from Fountain. A similar move to X-7OMU in Pure Blind for a notional CFC vs HBC war scenario is at least five jumps, while a trip to Curse to wage war on the nearby residents would take eight or more. Nerfing JDC to 15% per level would increase those numbers to nine, six and ten, respectively, and change little. A few extra accounts for more cyno alts, more prepositioned fuel stocks, all things that PL can afford. But a smaller group? They're hard pressed to do it already, and those extra accounts are a deal breaker. Making it harder to defend their own space or strike against neighbors does them no favors, either.

Wrapping Up

Even now, the geography of Eve can make logistics difficult to those attempting to go it alone. The threat of "nyncing" alone means hostile neighbors can cut you off, nevermind the challenges of defending a midpoint POS inside enemy territory. A reduced jump range as proposed by many only makes this more difficult. Meanwhile, the increased costs (whether by requiring more jumps, or increased cost per jump or both) do little to cramp the style of already large and organized groups while simultaneously placing a larger burden on the small groups the suggested changes are meant to help. While proponents of these changes are well meaning, they're also short sighted.

Perhaps, in light of these facts, they should advocate for increased jump range instead.

Mynnna
Seven year veteran & economics guru of EVE Online as well as CSM 8 representative. On the side I play PS2, WOT and Hearthstone.