The Myth of the Blue Doughnut

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LOLOL ONE YEAR LATER, 2 BLUE COALITIONS OWN ALL OF NULLSEC LOLOL
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I am disappointed in James' failure to create the term Techfoiler here, he set it up nicely then didn't follow through. Was clearly focusing on his doughnutters to much to spot it I guess :(
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Is it the term "doughnut" he is refuting? Fine, it wasn't a doughnut, or a complete circle. The "doughnut theory" was the view of it heading in that direction. That enough space was consolidated under various alliances and coalitions that had no desire to go to war with one another. Yes they would roam, yes they may send some big fleets. But the chance of sustained war erupting between them was minimal. Has the fear lessened over time? Sure. But the relation between CFC and HBC at one time, coupled with the raw numbers between the two, just made the possibility of a blue doughnut close enough to possible that it gained traction. As it stands it didn't come to fruition. But a reasonably blue "C" did make its way round the map. We'll see what the future holds, but to dismiss the concept out of hand is simply incorrect.
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He's also guilty of tossing some stuff in that's either blatantly insulting the reader's intelligence, or just lazy and sloppy writing. Example:"Yet these people, known to most as "carebears", comprise the majority of EVE players"'Carebear' is a derogatory term - it's used here as one, as well. If they are, in fact, the majority of EVE players, then "most" (ie: the very majority they comprise) would not be thinking of them in a derogatory manner.
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There is a disgusting number of CSAAs in Mermaid, Fountain still online despite Sort being ousted for being a complete cockbag.I don't know what the owners are paying TEST to not burn every single supercapital facility in that Mistakes Were Made space.
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Did you cancel your NIP with the CFC?Of course, I'm speaking with the informations we get on the outside, but since 0.0 alliances are fairly open, it's quite a lot. Maybe I'm wrong on Test's leadership mid-long term plan, but the short term one is clearly retreating from a potential war with low success chances, and no direct threats to Test right now.You reset a third of the 0.0, but you're in a position where no one would attack you since you have a lot of non-blue friends who could come back and help you, you reset mainly pets (+raiden&init). The only potential threat for Test is N3, and N3 have a lot to chew through before even thinking about Test, and they don't seem eager to do so.No need to be butthurt, it's a very good political and military move. On a win EVE point of view, siding with Sort against N3 was pretty suicidal. And querious opening will give you a lot of fights without risking your infrastructures. Have fun killing people in destroyers, I'm doing the same in frigates, so I can't really ask you for more, right? :D
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Normally James you arent this bad, but I feel this article is just a large excuse for you to say (for the millionth time) that all highsec dwellers are bad at and ignorant of eve.
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o7m8 is a PL carebears alliance more than a Sort Dragon alliance. PL is also out of the HBC, but nothing to do with Sort. It's still fishy, but a lot more logical. As Test, without the HBC, you don't want to anger your old friend PL. Who knows, you could need them one day! Not like it costs Test that much, anyway.
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Huh.Doesn't shake the fact that I feel like a massive tool for not being allowed to go up there and shoot big baby space ships in space with my space ship.
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Why would you have to grind all they regions at once? I think people are also afraid they'll loose a few fights and sovs, have their less implicated members of the coalition leave/stop fighting, and snowball into a full defeat.You're right, NIP aren't the reason. They're a consequence. If you have NIPs, you can look weak for a little while and not have all your "friends" take your sovs.I'm in FW at the moment, and people aren't afraid to spend hours (or days) sitting in plexes to flip systems. But they do so in frigates, with minimal risks involved. I think the problem isn't structure grinds. A lot of people in Nullsec are capable of doing pve for hours, and structure grinds aren't that much more boring.We've seen A LOT of structure grinds in recent EVE history (HBC taking of the south, massive. Goons seizure of the center-north, big, a lot of stations. N3's grind of the whole drone regions? Piece of cake). But there is a constant. Those grinds were against opponents largely outmatched, and for two of thoses, not willing to defend.I maintain, people aren't afraid of grinds. At all. People are afraid of RISK. And fights with consequences. Current coalitions are willing to fight, and are well matched against each other (ex HBC was, CFC, N3). So they sign NIPs and fight in destroyers, waiting for a hole in the enemies defences and preying on the weaks.What was the last time you saw a real war, with both sides trying to hold ground and take space for more than a week? I wasn't even playing, and I've been around for two years.As a non-0.0 player, I don't mind. As a 0.0 leader, I would not mind either. As a line member... I left Goonswarm. It's logical in a win EVE sense. No need to take unnecessary risks. The only people willing to take risks in 0.0 are the ones without ground in it. They have nothing to loose and everything to win.
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Orbiting a FW button isn't even remotely close to the same thing. You get LP, and thus income, for doing it. Finishing an FW site is conclusive. There are no timers forcing you to form up a fleet at an obscene time of the day for you to finish off. Speaking of fleets, you don't have to form up fleets. They are two entirely different things. FW grinding is boring but it isn't painful. Flipping sov in null is painful. It literally causes leader-types to stop playing the game.
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The moment sov changeovers garner a method that is less painful than extracting bone marrow from your own hipbone with a soup spoon, this might change.But it hasn't, and so Nullsec alliance don't go to sovgrinding every two weeks because of they did, everyone would just stop playing.It's a burnout; I've been there twice, and I've only been playing EVE in Null for two years.
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You mean like when he purged Raiden from Tenal not too long ago?
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The blue doughnut is delicious, specially the honey filled one!
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Sov grinding is happening as we speak it's just certain entities that refuse to grind against eachother.
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I don't believe this article was written by James 315 it is only 2 pages long!
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Holy shit I should start writing for the mittani, 150m for this shit?You should have done your research & painted how the donut actually looks like. Hell I would have done it for no less then 300m.At least it was only 2 pages.
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What a bunch of propaganda BS. This is like a shit sandwitch with an orange juice sprite.
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"led by the Goons and/or TEST, which they often believe are the same people."they are the same people!!!
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I don't know how to feel after reading that incredibly concise report by James, even if I would now take references to the blue doughnut with a grain of salt and no longer believe the hype, It would leave me agreeing with him. And to be frank I'm more likely to take PvP advice from a 3 day old carebear than to listen/believe to anything that crawls off James315's keyboard. Regardless of how true, well written or short you manage to make your diatribe any effect it could have on my opinions is ruined by the fact that you are the one saying it. Go bump a noob or gank a venture, or whatever it is you do in hi sec and next time you want to be helpfull or insightful, publish with an alt so people actually give your words consideration.
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Maybe he's just being factual. If the truth is not flattering, why is that his problem?
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But the narrative
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Isn't that what he always says ??It has some truth.. but.... nobody cares and its getting old...Oh wait.. James 315 is a highsec dweller himself... :D
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we've heard it all before and its still not interesting.
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I might be wrong but this article was not written by "Mittani" or The Mittani but is in fact by a staff writer....Oh wait.. i'm not wrong at all.
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You are literally a complete idiot.
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That, and "big blue donut" makes for better alliteration than the big no invasion, non csaa rf, no moon mining pos rf pact donut. (Did I miss something?)
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a lot of NIP/NAPs occur because sov grinding is such shit. it takes entirely way too much effort and time and is broken, so here's my proposal to garner CCP's attention. EVERY 0.0 sov holding alliance currently on the map should blue each other for one week in protest of the outdated sov mechanics and lack of attention on ccp's part. (afterall, there has never been complete dominion of nullsec) also a forum post acting as a petition should be created.seem like a good idea or am i just yelling at a wall?
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I wish they would refer to the concept as a Big Blueberry Bagel instead of a Doughnut.
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Please, more sitting on a titan in a drake for three hours while the cap pilots "do a thing," and then we all stand down. At least the links are entertaining.
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The RA/DRF war against SOCO was a very long and back and forth war. It was the truest form of what CCP could be expecting out of a sov war under the current system. It was also a blast.*omist sucks*
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Sov grinding only happens at an appreciable scale when you know for certain that the holders of said sov will not fight you for it.
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I'm a believer of the Rainbow Doughnut theory.
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I'm saying y'all a bunch of fags
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I'm sorry, that was insensitive.
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Yea man, stating facts is brown nosing.Here's another fact: You're a stupid faggot.Oops, more brown stuff on my nose, damn
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I'm a 'carebear', pretty much as James described. I have no interest in 0.0 beyond the current events. I have spent time out there, but I cannot commit to the CTA's and commitments most 0.0 entities require, so I'm in highsec.I have not and never will believe in a BBD, because I actually look at events, not hype from other players. James' bias against high sec players is well known, and a few times I have pointed out how he twists things to 'show how bad the carebears are.' He is a joke, and I'm pretty sure he knows it too.
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He's not a shitposter, you are. EDIT: whoever deleted that comment is a shithead.
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Too much cool kid nerd speak in here. Flat out actual gameplay doesn't match the stories I've read or the trailers I've watched. I don't know who the fuck most of these alliances are. But ill tell you what, I'm my trips to null, nothing exciting was going down. I spent the majority of my time ratting and looking for fights. Shit was downright boring. Hurry up and wait. So I stay in high sec cause its simply more to do in my opinion. I found this site thru the Aura app. Basically, eve players tell a good ass story when shit does go down, which is rarely.
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That's a really long winded way of saying "ad hominem".
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I regularly got the XKCD "Citation Needed" bit pop up in my head while reading this. http://xkcd.com/285/
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He isn't biased against hisec players, seeing as he's primarily a hisec player.
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After the "effortless" conquest of Delve the head of TEST's logistics division handed over the reigns, very publicly told everyone to go fuck themselves and hasn't been seen or heard from since.
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So you could leverage your ~engagement~ and perspective to talk about the history of NIPs and coalitions, offer some insight on the trends we see now and maybe show us how bad/actually pretty okay it is the the scheme of th- oh, you're gonna tear into some hyperbole like a literalist autist? That's not a very interesting article, actually.
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Better rainbow than blue. It means there's a whole spectrum, isn't there?
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Did you vote for CSM candidates who stand for less grinding more exploding? That would be a good start.
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this just in from the Russian community.... DoD, Solar, and RA forming a new coalition. This should help disprove the big blue donut theory
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He does have an axe to grind with others who's play style is not his own. It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads more than one paragraph of his work.
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Because James315 is one of the most prolific voices in the game?...Or because goons, RMT, satan etc etc etcTake your pick.
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Would you accept "Biased against most other hisec players"? It's pretty clear from just about everything he's written that he is biased against any players not primarily interested in PvP, which describes the majority of hisec players and is the most common stereotype that springs to mind when someone says "hisec players".
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Propaganda against casu and carebear, right ?Useless news. I can do the same with nullsec capsulers who feel the center of the world.Eve is their game after all. Ccp only works for them, nullsec is the only end game and goal of Eve.Other gameplay are piece of trash.If it can help you feel better James, thanks for this article, thanks for keeping us in the right way to play Eve, thanks for existing.
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It only takes one listen to his interview with Xander to realise that he cannot stand the standard highsec playstyle. He's very biased.
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What is the "standard highsec playstyle?"
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Calling many high sec players "uneducated" may be a better tag than "carebears", James. I'd even dare say that a nullbear may be better protected than a highbear would be. What differentiates them is that a nullbear knows that there are some threats to him, he'll know how to identify them and he will have contingency plans (usually docking or safe spots), whereas the "uneducated highbear" will think - based on what others told him - that he will spontantaneously combust the moment he sets foot in a null sec. In my opinion, there are far fewer players that are completely risk averse and far more of those who simply don't know how to get into null to begin with.I think we need to work on educating the masses, rather than pushing them into where they are too afraid to tread. Sometimes a stick works, but a carrot may well be more effective.
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Thanks, but I have enough koolaid.
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And by making blanket stereotypes you prove to be just as ignorant as he is.
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James has never invented a Strawman he didn't love.
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don't play EVE anymore, but first thing I'd do is increase the bounty on your head.....lol
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Seriously need to get an editor to James' work. He has interesting things to say, but damn he takes too many words to say them.
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Just stop with this "structure grinding" BS already. The last 6 months or so have seen UNPRECEDENTED sov grind happening, so clearly it hasn't stopped anyone from invading with intention of taking sov.
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It happens != it is fun.
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Doesnt matter if it's true or not, he's going to lose readers by just saying the same thing dressed up differently every time. He spends 1 paragraph on the bittervet group, 2 on the tinfoil group, and 4 paragraphs on the carebear group. Seems a little excessive.
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I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that it's a giant straw man. The number of people who do in fact argue the exact argument which James315 argued against is actually pretty large; which one could argue turns the 'man' from 'straw man' into 'confused and ill-informed average man'. It definitely falls way short of being a superior and valid argument, which would address all of the ways in which the term BBD is used, or at the very least acknowledge the existence of these various understandings of it.
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What do we care what rumors spread in high sec, let them believe that it's a giant blue doughnut or that it's populated by dragons or whatever, its not like goons or test recruitment model rely on high sec population
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Lol what a terrible article :P its a massive strawman. "Blue donut = 1 galactic coalition/treaty. At least two people dislike eachother => blue donut is a lie"aha, clearly sov is fine and doesn't need a look at at all.reference: wormholer who is intimately familiar with nullsec meta for purposes of target acquisition ;-)

WHAT IS THE 'BLUE DOUGHNUT'?

If you regularly read about EVE, you've probably come across the expression "blue doughnut" more than once. In the big picture of EVE history, it's a relatively new term. Over the last year or so, it has become increasingly common for EVE players to refer, always disparagingly, to this phrase.

The concept is simple. The map of the EVE galaxy is a vaguely round shape, with player-owned space (non-NPC nullsec) forming a wide ring around the "doughnut hole" of empire space (highsec/lowsec). If all of the entities who own nullsec space were to join together into one giant coalition, with every member set blue to all the others, then the sovereignty map might look something like a big, misshapen "blue doughnut".

Considering how often EVE players refer to the blue doughnut, you might suppose it actually exists, or has come close to existing. You would be wrong. At no point in EVE's history has nullsec been conquered by a single coalition. Nullsec players often complain (and always have) of "NAPfests," or of having too many blues. This isn't the result of a blue doughnut. The territory of a nullsec alliance might be nestled between two friendly neighbors, but that's a far cry from achieving total galactic dominion. While one group of players is sitting bored with their fellow blues in one region, another group is surrounded by reds and being plowed under. Nullsec as a whole has never had a moment's peace.

The blue doughnut meme, along with the idea of a peaceful nullsec, has proven surprisingly resistant to events. Many EVE players bitterly complained about the stability of nullsec even during the fall of the Southern Coalition (SoCo) and the subsequent demise of Against All Authorities (-A-), which resulted in one of the most significant transfers of nullsec ownership in recent years. When the CFC and HBC drifted apart and began to openly antagonize each other, the blue doughnutters continued to view them as a single entity.

Later, when war erupted in the east, the shifting friendships and rivalries among HBC, PL, N3, and various Russian groups should have been brought into sharper relief. No such luck; the image of the blue doughnut remains fixed in the popular imagination. Now that the HBC has unraveled, members of the EVE community are once again presented with the opportunity to abandon the blue doughnut myth. Will they?

WHO BELIEVES IN THE BLUE DOUGHNUT?

For those who live and fight in nullsec, the blue doughnut theory may sound like a preposterous idea; one that only a small fringe group would accept. Not so. Those who have never set foot in nullsec are often shockingly ignorant about what goes on there, and will readily accept any negative characterization of it. I would estimate that between a third to fully half of EVE players believe in some form of the blue doughnut theory. Let's take a closer look at who these people are, shall we?

There are basically three groups of EVE players who have bought into the blue doughnut. The first group consists of former nullsec residents who are deeply, passionately, irretrievably bitter about being kicked out of their homes. Most of these players saw defeat at the hands of Goons, TEST, and/or PL, who once comprised the CFC/HBC. Losers include former members of SoCo (especially -A-) and the Goons' forgettable northern enemies. Going back a bit further, we may also include bittervets from the fallen Band of Brothers alliance.

This group is afflicted by a combination of maladies: Sour grapes, fear that their eviction from nullsec will be permanent, and a hope that complaining about the blue doughnut will encourage division among their enemies. The lattermost factor was most prominently seen in the wake of the fizzled CFC/HBC conflict. The blue doughnutters weren't merely upset that they wouldn't witness another Great War; they wanted to watch their enemies destroy each other. These factors, while perfectly understandable, don't excuse the doughnutters' disconnect with reality. As former nullsec residents, they should know better.

The second group of believers in the blue doughnut theory belong to what I affectionately call "the uneducated classes". They mostly live in highsec. Like the classic description of the serial killer next door, they're quiet and keep to themselves. They have little interest in the game outside of the rock they're mining or the NPC they're shooting. Their feeling of disinterest toward the rest of the EVE community is reciprocated; few people engage with them or know what they're like. Yet these people, known to most as "carebears", comprise the majority of EVE players. And they believe in the blue doughnut in a big way.

James 315 has a distinguished history of combat in nullsec, mostly fighting against the Band of Brothers alliance, which was a bad alliance. Recently he has moved to highsec, where he currently serves as Father of the New Order and Saviour of Highsec