A Look at the New CSM Voting System

Avatar
I grow weary of people constantly griping about how the null blocs control and manipulate the voting for CSM. Frankly, the old system, in terms of the actual vote, was just fine (though I don't deny that is my opinion and would be highly contested). But most people's complaints is that it causes too many null sec players to sit on the council and not enough representation for low and high. This is where I have to agree and couldn't say it better than Trebor's point 5 in the comments where he states "I for one have no problem with the CFC putting 2 or 3 people on the CSM, and working hard to get out the vote in their favor. It shows they take the CSM seriously". From what I've seen, the CSM delegates, even those from null, do a pretty favorable job of seeking changes and such for all Eve. I may not agree with it all, but for most part its been acceptable. And perhaps a bit more emphasis could be put on low sec, but fixing low sec is going to take a LOT of work.The other argument people give is that in terms of player population, the representation is disproportionate from high sec dwellers to null sec. True. But then most of high sec is filled with low and null alts, new players who likely wouldn't understand well enough to push for decent changes (not all but most), and players who really just don't give a damn. The rest that do reside in high sec, who do give a damn, are in my best guess a very small group anyways.My only interest in any sort of CSM reform is to find something that weeds out the ones who simply run to have their chance at going to Iceland, weed out the ones who simply seek an ego boost or the utterly retarded ones that thrive on platforms of cross dressing in WiS, or simply weed out the ones who do it just because it seems amusing. But than, that really is what we, the players, the voters are here to do.
Avatar
The ironic thing is that now the nullsec blocs *will* start gaming the system
Avatar
This is some eurotrash voting dyfunction. We don't like people who are organized and succesful in charge. Penalizing success - not hard to figure out where that comes from.... people who suck at life and feel they are entitled to some shit.
Avatar
It's quite simple. Ive just thought of six categories off the top of my head let the candidates pick one and only one category and give the voters one vote per category. I'm not listing the six categories here as its not necessary to do so. CCP can decide the categories and the number of seats per category depending on what they plan to do for the next twelve months.
Avatar
They're not penalizing success and never intended to. Try reading what I wrote?
Avatar
I disagree that this will hurt the power blocs that exist. They will game it to get more representation than the current method. But I can't disagree that this is a very Euro mindset toward voting. This kind of shit would never go down in the states, except maybe in the most liberal of localities i.e. Cambridge, MA.Maybe we should fight space battles like this. I mean aren't all those extra ships in a blob really just wasted votes? Lol yes, it's a joke. I'm sure we're all good with first to the pole when it comes to shooting people in the face. It's just in voting we don't want any so-called wasted votes.
Avatar
Trebor is an idiot:Schulze runs in polynomial time, not exponential time.The Schulze algorithm is a widest path problem. It has a running time of N^3, where N is the number of candidates. It is quite an efficient algorithm for all candidate sizes.(I think Trebor is believes the algorithm runs in 2^N time, or he simply doesn't like Schulze-STV and is thus lying through his teeth,)
Avatar
They gamed it before its even easier now. Oh and your a retard.......CCP has not once in the 10 years lowsec has been around fixed it other than the last gate gun change. Tootles 07
Avatar
You have Failed me for the last time Trebor
Avatar
"Guys, I'm not anti-bloc, I just invented a voting system that makes their votes literally worth less than everyone else's!"
Avatar
That just makes you a cowardly whore, it doesn't make you not anti-bloc.
Avatar
Heh, now nullsec can prepare a 14 member ticket and troll the rest of eve.
Avatar
https://forums.eveonline.com/d...So either you're Poe himself, or a Poe Sychophant."heh"
Avatar
Just because you wrote an article doesn't mean my position in incorrect. CCP shouldn't allow the CSM to change the voting rules unless they are actually voted on by the players. Anything less than that CSM voter manipulation.
Avatar
Yeah. Total retard. Cuz besides gate guns, they didn't do shit right? Except to faction warfare which has brought life back to it and thus to lowsec. I'm not denying a lot more can be done but its certainly a step.
Avatar
They've always "gamed" the system. And let's face it, no matter what change they make to the voting process, null alliances will always figure out a way to continue gaming it. Eve players are (generally) smart and in large, organized groups will always figure out ways to beat the system.
Avatar
The last thing I want is someone from highsec to be put in CSM. Seriously. What is there to represent? AFK mining? Mindless mission running? Civil rights for Jita spambots?
Avatar
How did they game CSM 7?
Avatar
In case it wasn't completely obvious by now, this change was wanted and made entirely by CCP. The CSM proposal was for a pretty drastically altered version of this (which didn't fly for obvious reasons, chief of them being Xhagen isn't literally retarded).
Avatar
That being my point. But nope, Mr Unironic Libertarian IRL here thinks that ccp was honestly trying to penalize success or something.
Avatar
You know that CFC and HBC could by these rules ensure that ONLY their members got onto the CSM?If each group states what the 14 votes should be and in what order, between them they will take all CSM slots, as excess votes are transferred to the next guy, and no other group will have enough votes even if they all put a 1 next to the same person..It's a stupid idea and will fail miserably.
Avatar
Only two negs thats fine but why? If CCP and the player base want a representative council it makes sense to limit based on categories. The players in and for WH space can elect their two best WH candidates and so on.

CCP released its devblog about the new CSM voting system yesterday. There are four main points to take away:

  • Voting will now use some kind of single transferrable vote (STV) system, although probably not Schulze, as with 28 or more candidates for 14 slots, it's likely to be too computationally intensive.
  • A first pre-election ballot vote happens to determine the candidate list. Candidates must get at least 200 votes in this pre-election to appear on the final ballot.
  • The chairman title will no longer go to the candidate who receives the most votes. Instead, it and all other officer positions will be voted upon by the members of the CSM.
  • The summit attendees will no longer be "top 7 goes"; instead, it will be a "2+5" system, where the top two vote getters go (chosen by re-entering the voting results into the same STV system, but with two slots instead of 14), and the remaining 5 chosen "with CCP and the CSM working together to pick the 5 hardest working and most feature relevant CSMs." In other words, they agree on who has been working hardest and whose expertise is most relevant and those five go. In theory, anyway - CCP could very well make that a unilateral decision.

Early last September, current CSM member Trebor Daehdoow made a thread calling for discussion of voting reform, in which he proposed a modified STV system. One of the goals of that system was, in his own words, to "reduce (but not eliminate) the advantages held by highly organized voting blocs." Needless to say, there was a bit of a furor over his suggestions, which continued largely unabated when CCP Xhagen made his own thread on the topic. The perception that CCP was "out to get blocs" didn't really change, and the winter summit minutes didn't help either - the text of them was easily taken to confirm that assumption.

And yet we're now looking at a more-or-less straight STV system which does very little to inhibit the voting power of organized blocs. Here's how this inevitably plays out. Organized groups conspire within themselves and amongst each other. In nullsec, the CFC votes their candidates in their top slots, and then throws candidates from the HBC, Solar's bloc, etc into their next slots. HBC votes their candidates into the top slots, and then candidates from other blocs into the next slots. And, so on and so forth. I'm sure the wormhole guys will vote all theirs in the top, and lowsec will rally around Marc Scaurus, but nullsec - the largest "bloc" in the game for sure - is going to be doing a lot of cross-voting for sure. Nullsec candidates probably take at least half the seats, wormhole candidates and Marc Scaurus capture another, and the rest are fought over by the unaffiliated candidates... of which there will be many, as 200 votes is only barely a larger barrier to entry (and only barely less gameable) than 100 "likes".

So what does that mean? Well, that depends entirely on how many votes are cast. With an STV system, the threshold will be (Total Votes/15) + 1 to determine a seat. If we use last year's vote count, the threshold for a seat would be 3941 votes; additional votes past that would transfer. If CCP's attempts at increasing turnout are successful, that goes up, if they're not and turnout is actually lower, that goes down. Needless to say, though, without a massive increase in the total votes cast, it isn't difficult to imagine that TEST and Goonswarm alone could effortlessly place two candidates apiece on the council if so inclined, to say nothing of the rest of their respective blocs getting involved. It all adds up to another nullsec-dominated council.

And CCP did it anyway. If their goal was to prevent that, they'd have to have known better themselves. The CSM would have warned them, especially if certain of its members are so anti-bloc voting as some players seem to think. People in the voting discussion threads warned them, though the general reaction to Trebor's explicitly undemocratic proposal was not friendly. And, for that matter, I have it on good authority that past councils warned them as well - voting reform, after all, is not a new topic. And yet, here we are. CCP seems pleased with themselves, and Trebor - one of the most vocal (and supposedly anti-bloc) proponents for voting change, as mentioned before - appears content with this system.

There are two possible conclusions here. The first is that CCP attempted to nullify the power of an organized vote and botched the process. I'm sure many players will choose to believe that. The alternative is that CCP is genuinely trying to create an election process that better represents the demographic that participates in the elections... whether or not that demographic accurately represents the diversity present in the playerbase as a whole.

Y'know, I may have read something to that effect somewhere or another. Maybe their intentions were honest all along!

So, the system is trying to better represent those who vote. Want to be represented in that voting demographic? Get out and vote. "Oh, my candidate won't win anyway" is not an excuse, as now more than ever that is simply not true. Previously less competitive candidates now have the chance to pick up extra "wasted" votes, boosting them to viability.

That's not to say that this is without problems. In fact, it could backfire spectacularly on CCP. As certain players have already pointed out, neither the white paper nor the devblog is perfectly clear on things. Does the pre-election produce a ballot of 28 maximum, or a minimum of 28? (Apparently it's the latter.) While the white paper does clearly spell out that you do not have to fill 14 slots on your ballot, it's buried under six pages of fluff and background; many will not read it. There are also many variations upon the STV counting process, something CCP claims they haven't yet picked. The additional complexity and lack of clarity may well turn players off instead - if CCP wants to increase turnout, they will have to very clearly explain how things work as part of their PR blitz. Only time will tell whether they'll be successful there or not, but one thing's for sure: It's going to be an interesting process to watch.

Seven year veteran & economics guru of EVE Online as well as CSM 8 representative. On the side I play PS2, WOT and Hearthstone.