James 315 Responds to the New Anti-Scamming Rules

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no wonder PL is so inactive. CCP must have banned all of em.What is this universe coming to. CCP is setting itself up to be bought. You heard it here first.
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Whats the phrase all the pvp'ers and scammers use all the time.... adapt or die?Yeah do that.Put your money where your mouth is, adapt to the new ToS or die out as a group.Is scamming part of eve? Sure why not, its part of that harsh brutal world we love and enjoy. But at the same time, eve is a game about repercussions for your actions, and a lot of scammers never faced repurcussions. "I'll just roll up a alt lawl, it won't tarnish my reputation that way and I can scam to my herats content."Only now, if you want to scam you'll have to do it on your main, and live with those repercussions.Isn't that what eve is about? Risk vs. Reward? Now there is a risk to the scammers reward.
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QYou may not impersonate or falsely present yourself to be a representative of another player, group of players, character or NPC entity.QSo too many times someone has been given roles by pretending to be someones alt of an alliance. So this act is now a perma ban offense. Interesting and makes sense given how easy it is to do this.
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Who needs mexican soap operas when you can have the EvE ToS?
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To the contrary, eve is protrayed as a dark and dangerous universe, where you have to, in the words of CCP themselves "harden the fuck up". If you arent smart, you lose something, be it a spaceship or items or a chunk of your wallet. If somebody isnt smart enough to avoid a scam, then often times they deserve exactly what happened to them. And scamming has from the beginning been regarded as a perfectly legitimate way of making money, and it's even been encouraged. Scamming is, in short, not only a part of the game, but a part of the culture. And CCP has just made a very large part of that against the rules.
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Which is perfectly fine and not against the TOS!
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Hmm. Can you scam by faking NON-affiliation?Example:1. Offer ridiculous amounts of ISK in exchange for privileged corp information, such as 'member last login times', to a corp you have an alt in. 2. Blackmail anyone who accepts the money and isn't a member of the corp citing ToS for 10x whatever you paid.3. Profit... or ban?As soon as they claim they can get the information and take your money, they've benefitted financially from lying about an affiliation with a corp.While this seems technically legal under the ToS, the scary thing is that if you did this, YOU would be more likely to get banned for faking non-affiliation which they'd probably interpret to be the same as faking affiliation.
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I think what's really worrying is the lack of understading of what impersonation actually means, it seems that both the player base and CFO don't
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Fucking predictive txt CCP not CFO
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First Kung Fu then WOW... Coming soon to EVE.
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I'm so glad that CCP is going to go the same way as WoW did and adhere to the casual innocent playerbase. I guess all good things have to come to an end.
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Completely terrible, even for a carebear attitude. Eve is a sandbox meant to be dark and harsh. Would you like them to also start giving your ships back to you when you lose them to NPC's lil guy? Wud dat make wu feewl better?
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Alliance HC-"Hi Chris can you fly your alt to this system to sort out station settings"....Me-"I can neither confirm or deny this account is affiliated with me owing to ToS on impersonation"Alliance HC-"I only need you to change the refine tax"Me-"I'm not risking a ban for you and your reasonable requests!!!!!"gg CCP
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en24 is leaking againnow where's powers with the caulk
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Banhammer of Damocles. I love you.
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>go back to wow if you wanna scamthis is a poor attempt at a troll, right?
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Petitioning and getting the roleplayers banned is my new EVE pass time.
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Seriously? Seriously... You just posted this. I believe that issue was covered in this article, and promptly torn to shreds. The ToS is not the same as it was, try reading the article again, (if you even read it the first time before posting this shit.)
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A glass of Chardonnay in a candle-lit room with a James 315 article, simply blissful~
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Show me where the Jita scammers touched you.
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If I need to get really semantically nitpicky for sperglords such as yourself, then the specific phrasing in the TOS is new, but the rules they represent have been enshrined in the naming policy and EULA for quite some time. I know players like to believe otherwise, but that really isn't the case.
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I didn't realize JEFFRAIDER could post in lower case, with no "PL#1" or "king of Null/Low"
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James 315, you are the perfect Pied Piper of Evelin.stfu now kkthx
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Dude, did you read even the article? I don't think it was against the ToS to scam with an alt by claiming that you represented say Goons on your main before the changes. Try actually reading the article before posting in the comments.
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Everybody petition it when it is mentioned in corp chat. Rule will be changed soon enough after
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So, we should protest these changes by making a bunch of petitions c/d?
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Never not overheat your rack full of comment modules.
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Thank you James315 and thanks to the Mittani staff for providing a very insightful article on the slippery slope before us within the TOS. Excellent article and it needed to be explained. Hopefully CCP will do a 180 on this.
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If I claim that I am (player name here) or a representative of (player group here), I'm misrepresenting myself by using the name of another player or player group. There has been a rule against that in both the EULA and naming policy the whole time; the TOS update was intended to bring it in line with that. Ya'll getting upset over that fact being pointed out doesn't change it, though getting upset at me over it is kinda funny since I'm on your side and all: https://forums.eveonline.com/d...
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One thing to note is that impersonation is not limited to "for the purposes of scamming". Scamming may be the obvious thing that this covers, but it also covers ANY activity where "impersonation" is used.
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Are those tears I hear?
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He does this when he's serious.
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i got your cock right here
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wait
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"This is very revealing. Karidor's point is that there aren't a lot of in-game counters to scamming. If someone claims to be your alt and then scams people, you probably can't hunt down and kill him, since he's probably someone's alt, sitting in a station all day. The only way to protect your reputation is to get the GMs to ban him for invoking your name."How about not falling for the scam in the first place. That seems like the perfect counter.
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Anything that brings James 315 to tears is alright by me. The guy and his crew are the worst sort of scum. Cowards, they only seek to spoil the efforts of social players.Cry, James, cry!
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My brain just hit Microwarpdrived everytime I read a very good article. Freakin TOS, did not understand a bit of them. I will ban CCP for scamming mehself.
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I don't see tears, I see a well thought out article about the situation.
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Unless the investors are Mexican Drug Lords, maybe.
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Chribba has given to us Eve-File and he is probably the only guy I could trust with my own wallet. It is kinda a big deal, but not big enough for CCP involvement.
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So essentially CCP has banned Chribba and Darkness from ever using his alts as a fourth party to handle supers and titans? When means they both need to use their mains am I right?
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Please ban this guy for impersonating James 315. It can't possibly be him writing this article; it's only 3 pages long.
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He's sending this from his mom's where the caps lock key is not stuck
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Making the game mechanics and UI easier to understand is a good thing.Taking action against scammers is another. I joined Eve because I heard about the EiB scam.Making it against the TOS to tell the fucking truth ?Fuck that. I just canceled my subscription, and I'll only resume it when this stupidity is corrected.
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I just took the 'or die' option and canceled my subscription. If you object to the TOS changes, do the same. Be sure to state your reason.
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lol that would be Trigs official story for sure.Tell me, how is Tribal Band now and days.... oh yea thats right.
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"Under the old rule, it was illegal to use typography to impersonate another player by creating a similar-looking name."Even that is actually open to interpretation. If we take the wording of the old rule at its most literal, it only applies [i]if the scammer had exactly the same name as the character it claimed to represent[/i]. Which limits it only to cases of gaining control over someone else's account and using his characters.Whatever the interpretation, the new rules are anything but "old rules reworded".
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don't forget canflipping.
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Yeah I honestly really appreciate someone going through those fucking eve-o threads god damn they are so bad to read
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NO FEAR YOU GUYS DON'T BELIEVE OUR CUSTOMERS LET'S MAKE THE GM'S LIVES EASIER!!!
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when in fact this will make the GM's lives terrible :S
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you're a hyper retard btw
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it was time to do this long ago... use the game mechanics to get isk, not the ToS! Noob scammers... Cant shoot shit but can lie? I bet you are retarded scammers in real life too... Should be executed, or jailed for a lifetime.
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So every time someone claims to be an alt I'll petition it. How do I know they're telling the truth!?
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I'm about to think that these are some consequences of Soundwave leaving.
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CCP is worried about people rage quitting after getting scammed its really that simple. Uninformed, ignorant people get scammed easily. I remember when I was contacted by a "goon recruiter" who told me to contract all of my ships to him and pay him some sum in isk. I had the sense to think...wtf...no null alliance is worth this, and then to just give him all of my assets? I googled found out it was scam and my wife and I walked away no issues. However, many simply do no read closely, check contracts, are too impatient, or just plain stupid. They lose 3billion in assets and to them that was the totality of their eve experience. So they get mad and rage quit. CCP loses money and that leads to this stupid confusing change in the TOS. If I were a scammer I would change professions quick....cause your going to get banned.Jem sends his regards
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this is targeted against scammers period....
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this article is as well written as it is lengthy. just what you would expect from the Savior.
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what's your success rate so far?
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Are you guys seriously THIS upset that YOUR meta game has been ruined?You ruined many peoples game, karmas a bitch!
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Your own stupidity ruined your game.
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I agree with James 315, especially when the underlying reason CCP are doing this is to save newbies from their own stupidity. It would be much more productive to make them understand that EVE is 'really hard that way' when it comes to scamming and that they should expect it. It's setting the right expectation for the user. Some people will accept that, some won't. But they should be made aware of it.Banning someone for telling the honest truth about their relationship with one of their alts is pure Kafka. Besides, that's not what impersonation is. Somebody needs to read a dictionary.What if you're not using spelling but simple grammar to scam someone? "I would like to represent Mister Expert Scammer to help you move your super carrier." Is that impersonation? I'm not impersonating anyone, I'm just expressing a desire. Is expressing a desire against the ToS?The way to protect newbies is to educate them properly, not by protecting them against scammers. It's not supposed to be a safe environment, that's what CCP have been saying all along.Also, if you're experienced enough to be in the market for a super capital ship and you _still_ don't understand the nature of scammers in EVE Online, the scam is the price of the lesson. Chances are if you haven't learned it by then you'll never learn.
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Every alliance member with roles should do this at least once.
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You are slowly becoming one of us. Enter the light, friend.
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you don't know the tricks...I do and yes it is easy.
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Scammer tears, best tears.
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I wonder where you run your mission bot.
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They were written by James' alt.
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That... That was the day I almost cancelled my sub... but then I moved on. I understand making the game better, but use the dev time to fix broken mechanics instead of making the game safer for noobs. I know we were all there at one time, but remember guys! Why are most of us here!? Was it because Eve was praised to be fun and easy? HELL NO! We came to this nasty gritty universe for the tears we could harvest of others in one way or another. If not PVP maybe scamming or even to control the markets. There was a reason for CCP putting out the HTFU music video. They have lost their way and become soft.Yes maybe I'm going all bitter vet here, but the game is changing in ways I don't like. New players come and go. Old farts like myself and others who have been here for a while share my feelings. Remember the uproar about noble exchange? Take a close look at the 10 year pack. I don't have where CCP stated they were only selling cosmetic stuff or even if they did, but there are some game tilting implants in that pack. At $150 some ppl wont be getting them. I know their not pay to win, but I can see the writing on the wall now. CCP slipped em in to see if they could get away with it.
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They're available in Jita for ~300M each.
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Do you still cry yourself to sleep because you got space fired? From all the bitterness. I'd be surprised if you can even enjoy EVE anymore. You're like a poor little crank whore who knows its over. But you just can't let go of the addiction. I bet if Trig jiggled his zipper you'd come running back like a good little puppy. All happy that master called you back.
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LOL. This place is warm and fuzzy to me.
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Would be the best piece of comedy I've ever read.
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Less eye-candy in the ToS :(
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I am not against scamming. What I am against is disguising a shitty opinion piece as a news article. When writers do this kind of thing, they, including James315, are using half-truths to rile up the uneducated and uninformed.
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Yes but how do you think they got on the market?
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I think there are 4 possibilities going on here:1. CCP doesn't trust their own customer support staff, so they've made it technically impossible to look to see if character_x is an alt of character_y. The rule changes exist because they want customers to stop asking the sort of questions that can only be answered by "yes/no, these are alts".2. They made a stupid decision, and in the same frenzy of "when you get to the bottom, double down and dig faster" that they had with the CCP Mintchip fiasco, the folks at CCP are going to double down and refuse to budge on this issue even when they know they made a mistake. You know a lot of men like that - any admission of a mistake will cause their weiner to shrivel up and fall off (for an ingame example, see Socratic).3. This is actually what the internal rule/wiki that the GMs (and other customer support reps) have been using. They've finally let the external world know where the edge cases on the rules are, and this article points out, there is a lot of stupidity going on, and now that we can see it, the stupidity makes one want to gouge their eyes out with a spork.4. They're trolling us. They know this is something that will cause maximal tears among the shadier side of the player base and while it doesn't cause the sort of explosions and threadnaughts like Hulkageddon, it can be fun watching the frenzy going on.If I had to bet on something, my money is always on "stupid". To paraphrase HL Mencken, "nobody ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the American public."
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You need to remember: Eve has always been a sandbox. Anything that takes sand out of the box and replaces it with cinder-blocks is going to come under scrutiny from the community (and should). Especially in the case when those cinder-blocks have written on them, "Touch and be banned." Also, your first sentence implies that you are not a part of the groups you are talking about, which makes me wonder why you are playing EVE in the first place.
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It's also nice that James didn't throw in his usual filler. This is what we want: clear, to the point explanations of things without grandiose bullshit.
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OUR LOST SUBSCRIBERS HAVE ALREADY BEEN REPLACED
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you're the only one that sounds bitter.
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AWOXING: impersonating a wholesome member by pretending to be a miner.Well fuck.
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Except in real life, the main would be traced to the alt by money transfers, and thrown in jail.Eve scamming may or may not be interesting game play, but RL it ain't.
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While the TOS is still BS, both the TOS and EULA are there simply to say "We can ban you for what ever we want." and they always have been.
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It's one thing to make a bad rule, but it's another to ban scammers for telling the truth about their alts. It seems to defy all reason.No one could've said it better.Also, i'm about to *start blackmailing my buddies when they send me evemails from their alts*, especially the richer ones.
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I think we should make a bunch of petitions, by flat out saying that we need something done in our alts...Or everyone get himself in a logistics chain orbiting he jita monument, and picking as our ship name: Alt of *Random jita undocker name*
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Thank you James315 for making a throrough and on the point post about the ToS-changes! The part that is most appauling to me is how the GMs are just spitting lies in the face of the community when questioned about these changes since obviously this was not their policy in the past anyone who has spent sometime in New Eden the last years is aware of this. #ToS-Gate #FreeChrisBailey
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Serious and JEFFRAIDER? This pair, it does not belong together.
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What a great read. Thank you James.
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The first article by James hat I really enjoyed. Good work!
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It's a weird feeling.
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explain to me what tricks can be used to get around a guy who says "ok, alt, you can't have roles until I get an evemail from your main." I cannot think of a trick other than hacking the main's account, which is already banned as fuck, obviously. Tell me your all-powerful tricks, or I will continue to think you're just gullible.
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If anyone sounds bitter, its you. I can join any alliance i want.A game doesnt define what i do, or who i am. I can play eve full time again whenever i choose. And an obnoxious sheep like you i couldnt give 2 fucks about. If you died of cancer tommarow, i wouldnt care.Shew fly, dont bother me.
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im not the one referring to shadoo as 'uncle'. To think you feel that PL is somehow in TRIBEs corner after Triget's multiple fails only goes to show how little you know.Do yourself a favor and go to kugu and look up jeffraider and triget's badgerden convo. Peace.
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"flagged my last post to have it deleted"I dont think you realize how these comment sections work. But im enjoying you painting yourself as a moron. Too bad you're a coward and dont post with your main.
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So is it illegal for me to publicly acknowledge i have a dust toon and an eve toon? is that impersonating myself?
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Oh lol
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haha you'd be surprised
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You can't counter someone who does nothing but sit in station all day. That's the problem.You can't use walk-in-station to go to the persons apartment, break in, beat the sh|t out of the person for scamming you, stealing all his ISK and then running away to nullsec, because you just violated Concord rules by stealing and hurting a "lawful citizen" and are now - yourself - a wanted fugitive.For a game where everything has a counter-balance, the scamming part is really badly thought out idea for it being allowed.
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It's the former actually. When those changes got introduced to the EULA/TOS, a million of scammers shouted out in unison and then their voices died away.It's ironic that people are more worried about their "fun in griefing other players" is going to be taken away than a sandbox losing it's sand.
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Who?
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Imagine the fun miners in High-sec will be having challenging these "agents of NO" when they claim they are agents and want to sell mining permits.
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Yeah, that someone would then be impersonating to be a representative of a group of players doing things in High-sec, even if in fact, he isn't representing them at all. Right, let me write up a petition.
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Lol. Post with my main. This is my account I made for this site. I've already torn into you multiple times on kugu while we all laughed at your general douche baggery. Never fear. :)
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"I love as you stroke my dick with all this attention"Poor thing, no one else gives you attention?
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Plenty give me attention. I'm just enjoying all the attention you're giving me. I knew you loved the penis. Ripley told me that you used to have fun with her. But I never believed it was to that extent. But now I see it.You're just an angry cock loving faggot.
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The writing is on the wall, CCP is paying lip service to the Bitter vets all the while changing the game toward a more carebear friendly environment. I look forward to the tears. Somehow Tear Harvester tears are the sweetest, most refined and tastiest of all.
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cracking good articlewell written, explained and argued.- Mothersammy
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To be honest, before the ToS change, I was considering to have a break from 0.0 and going to high sec, pretending to be an agent of NO and starting bumping / ganking miners with no mining permit. Of course, I would target all miners and primarily those that paid for the mining permit, just for the fun of it. It would be funny as hell to see miners crying that they paid the permit and are still getting bumped and I wonder what impact it would have on the operation of NO, on the relationship between miners and NO (would they still pay them to avoid bumping if they get bumped anyway?) and the reaction of James 315 on such actions. But now that these new ToS came into effect I probably would get the banhammer myself, so screw it then. But as I said in my original comment, I wonder how will agents of this NO identify themselves to prove they are what they claim.
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i dont care about this change..... dont see the problem....
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Isn't it obvious? The new scam is to build a reputation, claim go into business with someone you don't like using private communication out of game, then deny the partnership when they promote it in game and get them banned.
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GMs are fucking idiots. Did their brains melt?

By now, many of you will have heard about the controversy surrounding the change to one of EVE's Terms of Service, the rule on "impersonation", which now states:

You may not impersonate or falsely present yourself to be a representative of another player, group of players, character or NPC entity.

At first glance, the ToS update looks like a bad idea written badly. Upon being peppered with questions by a skeptical playerbase, the GMs went on record with their interpretations of the new rule—hoping to give EVE players some reassurance. I have reviewed the GMs' posts. After careful consideration, I've changed my opinion of the new rule. The change to the ToS isn't just bad; it's one of the most bizarre and unworkable decisions ever made by CCP.

If CCP pays attention to its players, it's likely that they will reverse their decision and revise the ToS again. By the time you read this editorial, hopefully they will have taken steps to correct their mistake. Still, if the President of the United States proposed to nuke China, it would remain a notable news story even if he changed his mind a week later. It's worth spending some time to analyze what went wrong.

Since the ToS change has been a big story, covered here and elsewhere, I'll just give a brief recap of the situation to get any new readers up to speed. Then I'll bring to light some of the GM statements and problems with the new rule that haven't gotten as much attention. Finally, I'll explain what I believe is at the heart of this mess.

The New Rules, in Perspective

Under the old rule, it was illegal to use typography to impersonate another player by creating a similar-looking name. For example, you couldn't impersonate Chribba by registering the name Chrlbba. (Actually, someone did register the name Chrlbba, and has gotten away with it for more than four years. I recently did a review of well-known characters and their impersonators, and it seems that CCP has been lax in its enforcement of the rule.) And, of course, it has always been a ToS violation to pretend to be an employee of CCP.

Under the new rule, CCP has greatly expanded its definition of "impersonation." It is now illegal to lie about being someone's alt. Nor are you allowed to pretend that you're affiliated with a corp, alliance, or other "group of players" that you're not a member of. For instance, you can't run a Goonswarm recruitment scam unless you're a member of Goonswarm. Nor can you falsely claim that a player or group of players will vouch for you, such as telling a mark, "You can trust me. Chribba's my business partner on this. Now let's talk about buying and selling some supercaps."

If it ended there, this would still be the biggest move against scamming made by CCP in EVE's history. Back in early 2006, when I first arrived in the world of New Eden, I recall CCP grappling with the question of whether it was permissible to promote a scam, such as a fake IPO or bank, in the EVE-O Market Discussions subforum. CCP decided to allow it. Scamming and trickery are part of what makes EVE the game it is.

Besides, CCP didn't want to spend its time auditing in-game businesses. If they had made it illegal to promote a scam on EVE-O, they would need to figure out which IPOs, banks, and other businesses were legitimate and which were scams. This probably wouldn't have been too difficult, since nearly all of them were scams. But CCP would have needed to audit them for proof of scamming before they could ban someone. To make matters worse, a business can be legitimate right up until the day the owner decides to walk away with everything.

For practical reasons, and for the sake of being consistent with the spirit of EVE, CCP has historically shied away from setting limits on scamming. Very narrow exceptions existed, such as the official in-game recruitment channel and special rules for rookie systems. Otherwise, New Eden has always been a scammer's paradise.

Now that CCP has radically shifted its policy on scamming, they'll begin to remember why they left the can of worms closed for so many years. The ToS changes I described above are filled with hidden minefields waiting for anyone assigned to enforce them. And the GMs have already stepped into some.

Insanity

On September 13, 2013, it became illegal to tell other EVE players the truth about what alts you own. The new rules forbid players from falsely claiming to be someone else's alt. This raised a lot of questions, since it would force GMs to check whether people are, in fact, alts of the people they claim to be. It's more complicated than it sounds. After all, many people own multiple accounts, and GMs would theoretically need some way to cross-reference them.

GM Karidor was asked about this, and he unveiled an extraordinary new policy: It's now illegal for scammers to claim someone is their alt, even if it's true. This is considered "impersonating" yourself. It makes no difference whether the alt has a similar name or is on the same account as the character truthfully claiming to be the alt. It's against the ToS, and is bannable.

If you think this policy sounds insane, I am inclined to agree with you. You may think that I am making this up, or at the very least, engaging in a bit of hyperbole. Typical James 315 rhetoric, right? No such luck. GM Karidor was asked about the following hypothetical:

So, if Olli's alt were named Humbaby, and he claimed to be Olli's alt to facilitate a scam, and actually was Olli's alt on the same account, you're saying that would be allowed?

GM Karidor replied:

The example I gave is clear enough to cover that, the short answer is 'No, not allowed'. If you were under the impression that this was permitted, you were going off on incorrect assumptions.

In disbelief, Abdiel Kavash asked the same question with different names:

I decide that I want to make some extra money off my past customers, without necessarily having to provide any extra services. I create a new character, Phill McScammer, on my account. I then go talk to a past customer of AbdielCorp and I claim that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash. Customer falls for it, sends me their money and never sees it again... Can I be banned for telling the truth?

GM Karidor confirmed that yes, scammers can be banned for telling the truth:

Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victim's, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.

Still in disbelief, as I suspect many readers are, Abdiel asked for confirmation:

Except that Phill never claimed to be anything he wasn't. Phill didn't claim to be the character Abdiel Kavash. He claimed to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash—which he was. At no point Phill told a lie. Does 'impersonation' cover 'truthfully stating the nature of a character'?

GM Karidor confirmed the insanity was official CCP policy:

Both characters Phil and Joe used the name Abdiel Kavash to give of the impression they were somehow related to him. The cases are effectively identical. Yes, with Phil the actual statement of him being an alt is true, but the actual act of the character using the name of Abdiel Kavash does not differ in any capacity at all.

At this point, I would like to add that GM Karidor isn't some random GM who got hired a few weeks ago and shot his mouth off. Karidor is a senior GM. He's one of the guys that the ordinary GMs go to in order to find out what the rules are. If you're not happy with a petition answer, or you get banned for some reason, and you escalate the matter to a senior GM, it might wind up on Karidor's desk. Comforting, no?

James 315 has a distinguished history of combat in nullsec, mostly fighting against the Band of Brothers alliance, which was a bad alliance. Recently he has moved to highsec, where he currently serves as Father of the New Order and Saviour of Highsec