Hisec Warfare, Past Present & Future

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Thanks Ian, that's a truly informative piece of journalism about an area of EVE that I personally was pretty much in the dark about. It's also an excellent reply to the miguided folks who want to just throw out hi-sec PvP altogether. Just because it's not "big fleet" doesn't make it unviable, non-fun or irrelevant.
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Well thought out and well written article.The war bills are hilariously broken and overly expensive considering Hi-sec is meant to be a newbie friendly zone. Their seems to be no starting area for new wannabe hi-sec warlords if the cost is easily 2-3 times their wallet size.
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Totally the opposite, IMO. Though a lot of people seem to get their kicks through big fleet actions somehow, I really can't see how because your actions are so irrelevant and your death is anywhere from possible to probable through what is essentially chance. Only the FC and a select few pilots in special roles gets to really play the game as I feel it's meant to be played in fights like that; everyone else is just watching it unfold and playing along with the kiddie choreography.In hisec everything you do matters. The largest hisec fight I've ever been in was our engagement between Moar Tears and EWOKS with our 18 Abaddons vs. their 50 Drakes (in which we discovered just how badly CCP had borked logistics module deactivation), and even then the actions of every single one of our pilots was crucial to the potential success or failure of the op.All the most compelling, hair-raising fights I've ever had have been in hisec, and I've roamed and fought in every security status quite a bit. There's just something special there and to dismiss it is sheer folly.
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Yeah, I do feel that we haven't really begun to start approaching a good medium with the pricing curve for wars; even that aside the price multiplication is downright hilarious. You should see some of the war bills we've gotten. (2.8 billion isk for a week of war, anyone?)
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Agreed, execpt that neutral logi is only 1 part of the fail. Command changes needing the ship to be on-grid and (hopefully) get aggression will fix the other part I've decreed broken.
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I disagree. 50 million/week is still chump change for any corp that has more than 1 member.
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"Running a profitable PvP organization in highsec thats experience, organization, and effort."A PvP oranization has to be organized, and will take effort to run.... well there goes my dream of running an organized PvP corp, better go to W-space(or anywhere for that matter) were corps don't need to be organized, or put in effort /sarcastic.Why do people think everything should be on easymode in highsec, yes even in highsec you need to put in effort if your a corp leader, this has nothing to do with highsec, good corp leaders make decisions, and thier corps live, or die by those decisions. Not everyone is cut out to be a corp leader, and just because you PvP in highsec doesn't mean your corp should be playing on easymode.
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I can only think of a handful of highsec pvp corps that have existed with purpose beyond whoring killmails. The only two that come to mind immediately are Red vs. Blue and Dec Shield; one bypasses most of the mechanics of the Wardec system so both sides can shoot the other indefinably, and the other exists just to display how retarded and fucked up the war mechanics are...
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I feel sorry for those players in corps that live and die by their CEO's word. I believe the CEO gives the direction and the members do the driving. The reason I enjoy high-sec and Widdershins too is that high-sec IS NOT easy-mode. We play in highsec because we enjoy the thrill of the chase not because solo to small gangs are easier to defeat than 500man fleets.OH, and well done taking that quote out of context to make yourself seem high and mighty well played sir I bow to your intellect. Meanwhile the rest of us with inferior minds will have take it for what it is, which is an article about highsec wars not about the operational practices of corps throughout eve.
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To be fair alot(almost all) highsec PvP corps are not in it for PvP at all, they are by and large war decing indy corps, ganking ratting fit BS, and mineing boats, and hualers. The war dec mechanic has always been a pay to grife mechanic, and implying that ganking ratting fit BS on gates, or in missions is somewhat ridiculous.What I read from the author is tears because the fee to gank carebears has gone up.
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I think it should be pretty easy and cheap to declare wars. If people and their corps don't want to be in a war, they can join an NPC corp. Too many scrubs want it both ways, they want all the benefits of their own corporation but not the risk.
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If you want to see the future of highsec warfare, imagine an officer-fit vindicator hugging the Hek undock, forever.
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Agreed. There are never any good fights in highsec. It's usually the same outfit of griefer corps going after indies or miners because they know those ships can't shoot back.
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agreed, not saying it isn't fun, but hi sec pvp amounts to the same as any random gate camp, you aren't pvp'ing, you are ganking shit. Except w/ the war dec you aren't goin to get some random gang along to interfere. I did enjoy the attempt to say "cat and mouse" games instead of "docking" games. that one made me lol.
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from the perspective of a High sec based newbie, high-sec wars are a farce, a mishmash of station games, screwed up aggression, and who can bring the most neutrals. I have yet to see an decently sized engagement where neutral logi's, OG boosters, and scouts are not used. If a WT is in system, you can bet he has "neutrals" in system as well, and allies on the other side of the gate, and perhaps a cloaked tornado. If you undock with enough force to fight , they'll run, then cry about "blobbing".90% of our highsec losses are ganked mission runners/industrials, which i guess is what piracy is about. But currently, unless dec-shield is used, there are very few ways for non-piracy based corps to effectively damage a pirate corp, as the pirates dictate when and where fights happen, and have no infrastructure to attack.
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After being a member of E-Uni and leading a number of fleets during my stay, I can safely say that "Hi-Sec PvP" is nothing but a circle-jerk of "Elite PvPers" picking on the less experienced with their neutral booster sitting off grid and their logi on the docking ring, immune to cap warfare and damage.It can be fun, I guess, but it's no wonderland.By the way, I think you're drastically overestimating the effects of wardecs on nullsec logistics.
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"I really can't see how because your actions are so irrelevant and your death is anywhere from possible to probable through what is essentially chance." except in nullsec warfare the side that has the more resilient numbers is the side that wins the war, also is it that hard to conceive that people enjoy the game in a different way than you do?High sec wardecs really don't matter to the large nullsec alliances. The only people who get caught are the ones who refused to use the out of corp neutral logistics groups or don't have them. Groups like Goonswarm and Test have constantly been under a wardec and that has never slowed them down. The wardecs didn't affect venal, tenal, delve, catch, or the war with NCdot so they don't laugh because of hubris, they laugh because it actually doesn't affect their war efforts. Explain how losing billions of isk in a freighter is different from people losing billions of isk in a ratting ship?
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This guy is correct. An idealist with two spare hours per week can support a war solo.
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not for a casual player it isnt, dont get me wrong i can make money easily enough and have no interest in highsec warfare, but making money in eve is not fun at all, i avoid doing it at all costs. i log on to pvp thats that.For a new guy in high sec of the same mentality, 50mil is out of his price range.
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Why is it the war deccers that must be responsible for what ships the decced corp choses to fly during war? Perhaps the other corp could form up and fight, most times i've seen an organized resistance, the deccing corp gets spanked.
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50 mil is small change for anyone living in high sec. Basically that 25 level 3 missions, or 3 level 4s. Or one good evening of mining in a retriever.
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"By the way, I think you're drastically overestimating the effects of wardecs on nullsec logistics."This is why anyone who opens a station trade or works a private contract with someone at war should gain a Suspect flag for 48 hours. Like everyone says, Neutral Logistics is a big problem and having neutral logistics alts makes it Easy Mode for 0.0 alliances to skirt the risk.Seriously - see what I did there?
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In the old iteration, all the advantages belonged to whichever side had declared the war. They decided when it started when it ended, and they normally could choose their targets. I agree that the mechanics need to be fixed, but I can't buy on that wars need to be cheaper. You are bribing concord, its not suppose to be cheap, just possible.The idea of a 'profitable' war is silly. Unless someone is going to pay (AKA bounties that are coming) for the destruction of your opponents ships, it should be a net isk SINK on a non-casual scale. I also don't think bringing in allies should be free either. Should cost some multiplier of the isk the war declaring corp paid. (Ex, If i paid 50mil isk for the war, then any allies brought in to defend need to cost the defender like 25 to 75 million isk). If you spend 50+ million isk to be able to shoot at someone, 150 other guys shouldn't get to butt in for free.All in all, the war declaration system can be used for narrative, although its generally used for greifing. But I'd not scrap the entire system for that reason, it has its place.
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I believe CCP is throwing out the multiplier for number of wars altogether in Retribution?Also, I'm somewhat curious why an article about hisec warfare doesn't mention suicide ganking at all, especially if you want profitable wars.Frankly mechanics and low and null make it difficult to fight profitably, I'm not sure why hisec should be difference when you can pick the fattest of the fat. 50 million minimum is fine. Though CCP does need to prevent people from just being able to hop corp or disband once actually declared.
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Sure. An idealist with over 6-8 months in the game; who has trained well for the ships they can fly; who doesn't need to make any huge time or corp-membership commitment to make their money efficiently; who don't also regularly buy new ships they don't yet own as they train to them effectively; who either makes an excellent amount of ISK per hour, pays for the game in real money, or has a lot of patience for PVE even as they discover how much better spent their time is doing PVP.A lot of the people reading this are plenty well established in the game and probably feel like if you can't throw around a couple hundred million now and then you aren't worth talking to. You all seem to be forgetting we're talking about someone looking to get involved in PVP early in their career, not long after they've been playing long enough to be doomed to eternal scrubhood or have already gotten involved somewhere else.Remember I'm not complaining that the prices are too high for ME. I have no problem spending a billion-odd a month for my corp to stay in wars, but I would be a short-sighted jerk to expect outlay anywhere near this scale of a younger, less experienced player or group. So would you.
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They dec them because the see them in those ships. They can look at the age of the pilot in relation to what they fly and know they won't be able to fly anything that could be a threat. So they either harvest kills or hold the corp hostage for a week. That should cost money, and lots of it.
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If they are "early in their career" they shouldn't be forking out isk for wardecs, they should be in a corp that does that, or you know, going places where pvp is free.
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No, they shouldn't. People used to hate BoB when they said "we control your game." yet you seem to think that for some reason you should have this ability on others? No, there must always be an out. Otherwise a corp could be held in ransom forever, which means they take the ultimate out and unsub. No one wins in that scenario.
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Well said, this is basically my line of thinking. That 50 million can spiral out of control pretty quickly, too: currently with the war cost multiplier in place it costs more to maintain a state of warfare against 3 small corporations at a time over the course of a single month than it costs to create an alliance. Yes, that simple task of warring 3 small entities (something those who have spent time fighting in hisec will know) is barely enough to keep 1 or 2 people busy, costs 1.2 BILLION ISK over the course of a single 4 week period. This is just far too much. Even with the multiplier gone that number is only cut down to 600 million, considerably outside the means of a small interested group of friends looking to get involved where this used to cost a mere 72.I think we could really stand to open a serious discussion about the idea of accessible price scaling.
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The numbers part of being on the small, losing side or the large, blobbing side is what I was referring to in the "anywhere from possible to probable" part of that sentence, depending. Everything else pretty much boils down to chance unless you are spectacularly stupid or visibly important.Whether or not it ACTUALLY matters to the nullsec alliance that they're being dec'd/harrassed (it matters much more often than you seem to think; this myth of nullsec alliances with their logistics all figured out is a truly rare, indeed nearly mythical thing in reality), the fact is that it's still tons of fun to fight there, something that their leadership and membership will decry as impossible and stupid.
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It's another part of the puzzle, but it's a much less prominent and far less important part. Even today there's nothing wrong with bringing your own Damnation with the gang.
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Your attitude is exactly the one that I'm decrying here. I've not played docking games in months, nor camped gates or stations, and I've gotten numerous excellent gang engagements. Open your friggin' mind, son. You're indoctrinated.
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Your not talking about avg. players, your talking about players that haven't got a clue how to make isk in eve, just because the war is taking place in highsec doesn't mean it should be easy to profit from it. This is the WoW generation at work I swear.
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I suppose you're right, my reasoning was that the cost of the war would keep it from going on forever but really for a dedicated griefer that's nothing, even if you do refuse to undock.However, it is far, far too effortless to drop from a war as it stands. Even if CCP implemented the idea of someone being locked in an NPC corp (and thus paying NPC corp taxes) for a week after dropping the corp, it'd be something as opposed to the current situation entirely lacking in consequences except to your pride of a corporate identity/employment history.
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All you need to do to be profitable in wars is 1. be skilled enough not to die on a regular basis and 2. kill enough that the loot drops outweigh the cost of the war declarations. The latter is really not super hard to do with a good number of dedicated people, but the former seems to be almost impossible to most people and it's largely considered to be the Sasquatch of PVP.My younger members can attest that they'd been regularly told in their early careers that pulling a profit in PVP is impossible, but clearly we are achieving it. I'm not even talking about dragging a big slutty chain of neutral logistics around: all you need to do is play well, keep good intel, and don't be a bloody idiot with your battlefield judgements.
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I can't tell for sure from how you've written your reply, but I'm pretty sure I'm agreeing with you in that I'm disagreeing with the article writer's opinion on the cost of hisec wars. I think they're fine as they are.
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The logistics situation is about to get a bit better. And it's true that there is a certain breed of person who PVP's in any situation where it's impossible for them to lose, then hides and smacks. These range from the carrier-undocking lowsec wankers to the kind of hisec PVP scrubs you described here. Trust me, I disdain them at least as much as you.The problem here isn't that those are the only kinds of people who can PVP in hisec: the problem is that PVP in hisec has become so unpopular that they're the only ones you've met so far!
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lol..... You complaining about making 1.2 bil in a month? Why don't you just ask CCP to give tou isk for free.
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You make me sad.
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Your ability to mindlessly generalize is truly extraordinary. My hat is off to you sir.
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What you read from the author, if you have the reading comprehension to see it, is a lament that the mechanics provide an environment where that kind of play is the most prevalent kind of play there. There are plenty of good-fites to be had, but you actually need to look for them first.So many people put on blinders when it comes to hisec, claiming the worst kinds of PVP they can see must be the totality. This is such folly I don't even know where to begin. What would you say to me if I told you all about how nullsec is a terrible place to fight because either the enemy brings more carriers than I have alliance members or continuously blue-balls? Therefore nullsec PVP is endless boredom and frustration, amirite?
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These are all for people with decent skills. Plus, mining in a retriever is rather an inconvenient activity for people actually interested in fighting in those same systems.
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Thanks for advertising the absolute worst parts of hisec PVP to everyone as if it's the totality of the situation. I'm sure nobody else here had ever heard this opinion or perspective before you arrived. </sarcasm>
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That actually gave me an e-boner.
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The focus on wardec iteration has actually made a few nullsec entities start having hisec groups that do stuff there, such as Goonswarm's Ministry of Love (of which I am a member, if it wasn't obvious).I'm not sure I agree with your opinion of nullsec alliances "hubris" towards their line members getting farmed in hisec. There certainly are idiots who lose billions, the dumbest of the dumb in the nullsec entity. There are also many, many other people who travel around hisec responsibly in in-corp characters or use out of corp logistics. Should leadership really be concerned with these morons besides pointing out they shouldn't be autopiloting about hisec ever in anything they don't want to lose and when they STILL don't pay attention, letting the wardeccers kill them as a lesson for their stupidity? Is it worth it to handhold these clueless few? Waste our time escorting them autopilot about?Calling it hubris makes me think you expect leadership to be doing something more than they're already doing about their idiots being farmed, which I don't really think is the case, at least for GSF.On the other hand I have seen a LOT of freighters of characters in alliances of our enemies ganked by us, so maybe you have a point when discussing nullsec entities as a whole.
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Yes, that's how the game currently is. If you read the article again, you might note that I feel this is a poor dynamic and would like to change it.
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Nullsec PvP is awful(too much structure shooting), but implying ganking PvE boats with your PvP boats is thrilling, or cat and mouse games aka station games is fun is a joke.
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call it what you will but don't think I don't know how the game is played.
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It all comes down to people thinking they can pay concord isk to dicate how they will play. Since the target clearly wants no part of it they will do everything in their power to dodge you. If that money went to the target they might not care as much, but for them the wardeccer is harassment with no potential for gain.
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I'm not talking about station games at all. That's not at all what I refer to when I talk about cat & mouse. I hope you realize there are plenty of other ways to get fights in hisec.
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As a 4 months old player, I can easy 50 mil a day without trying too hard, through I will admit I'm quiet a fan of pve, which I suspect is why making that kind of isk is easy for me.Problem is pvp isn't anywhere near as reliable source source of isk as pve and a carebear can become reliably very rich in a relative simple and short amount of time. A navy issue raven can trained up to most level 4 mission in months, you don't need tech 2 launchers (through they help).Course alot of corp have a strong anti carebear culture, seeing them as "useless", but even with just basic 10% taxation and no fancy internal culture of sharing the isk, one guy who happy to munch his way through level 4 mission 3 hours aday, every day can bring in a surprising amount of isk per month for the corps use.And that just one guy who a stereotypical "carebear" and not a "corpbear" who can be persuaded to help in pvp and focuses on stuff like helping set up a corp ship production program and replacement program going.
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Chances are if you are enjoying PVE and making good ISK at 4 months you are not the kind of person who will have trained well for or be terribly interested in getting into PVP in this way.I have never ventured into the realm of corporation taxation, ship replacement programs, or anything of the sort. People are meant to be self-reliant for their own ISK and ships, loot splits and donations pay for wars, and there is nothing to steal, nothing to scam, and no drama about making ISK. Ship replacement programs and reliance on taxation in small-gang/hisec PVP groups are a recipe for strife. Resentment over who's spending all their time PVPing and reaping the rewards of the people who are doing the breadwinning for the corporation, arguments over who does and doesn't deserve to be reimbursed for this or that mistake... all a terrible plan in my experience.
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I think it's a little late for that.
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but my point still remains it does not affect their war effort and their goals, and that is why they laugh it off not because of any hubris, hi sec wardecs didn't affect the defense of 49-U nor did it affect the fall of NCdots space. Nothing in those wars can be attributed to hi sec PvP or hi sec wardecs.Again you also fail to see my point about "blobbing" there is no "real game" in eve, and every member who is on that fleet is contributing towards the success of their chosen alliance/coalition. The reason 49-U was won was not some elite pvp or grand strategy, it was because the LINE MEMBERS showed up and continued to show up.
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I am confused, in one response you seem to be saying this needs to change to help new players afford this method of game play, and then here you are asking for skills that new players don't generally possess. I don't think the cost of war decs impedes most new players choices in PvP.Wars without some reward built in should not be profitable unless you are 'very good' at it, or you are drawing on some fund someone else provides. Otherwise its just a tool for griefers, not a tool for narratives to play out with.
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I kinda disagree on the complete self reliance myself, as I see the main advantage of a corporation in the first place is that you can share the bill and rewards, as well as benefit from corpmates with skills in other areas (personal skills and skill points both), but I do think you hit the nail on the head, how do you make it -fair- in what given and taken?Simple flat taxation is easy way to acquire funds from corpmates fairly, even if Micky the Mission runner pays a lot more than Pat the Pirate on average.Skill sharing another easy one. Things like rather than buying everything from Jita, find the guy who willing to set up buy orders (perhaps even have a system were your corp sell there stuff in a specific place to corp buy orders or corp contracts). Encourage people to share tips and tricks in chat as well, we all have strong suits and we all can learn.You can also spin things and make people feel valued more. A guy might not be too keen on giving 15 hurricanes away, but he might be keen to donate a few to "Operation Flaming Death" to take system Billybob.Then there the good old, bad day funds. Having a selection of fitted ships for versus roles that are cheep and easy to use that can given out to corp mates in a pickle, i.e. Jim we know you lost your Tengu, take this Drake for a bit until you can get on your feet again. This can also work on a more one to one level. I've helped loads of really inexperienced guys get in there first cruiser or mining barge with simple 20 mil loans that I don't follow up too closely on, older players tend to be much richer than newer ones, so give them a leg up!Now a lot of these system as a bit of pain to get set up and get running, can make corp run so much more smoothly and the bills look so much smaller when there running right.
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The almost complete lack of intelligent replies in this thread further squashes my hope for the vast majority of EvE's player base.I remember just reading an article very recently, on theMittani, about taking off your damned indoctrination glasses and looking at the situation and buff/nerf/change opportunities with a wide mindset. All the replied messengers here either:A) Never read said articleB) Didn't understand that article, and so are utterly lost on this oneC) Have already forgotten the most important lesson they could have learned concerning EvE's future in all securities.However, I don't think most of the people having answered so far could see past their nose, let alone reason, for all the bigotry and assumptions they have made concerning the topic at hand.
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Before I read this I didn't realise sitting on the Jita undock required skill, effort and planning. Truly an eye opener.
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Is it just me or did you totally misunderstand what Mr. Widdershins said?Sigh... idiots.
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So, to you, the fact that people can influence others playing /at all/ is a problem? Or are you just saying that certain people will do everything in their power to avoid any pvp and view people pissing in the sandbox as harassment and complain about it?
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So I guess people who live in hisec are "hisec bunnies", lowsec "lowsec bunnies", and wh "wh bunnies", then?
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I actually never implyed you were not profitable, but in your own story you wrote that you needed to be "experienced, organized, and had to put in effort" to be profitable as if this is a bad thing, later on in your comments you try and argue that you yourself could afford "spending a billion-odd a month for your corp to stay at war, but less experienced players can't" Implying that poeple who don't really know what the hell they are doing should be able to be profitable despited not learning the ropes from people that have be doing as thier eve career for years. I'm in the merc business myself, been doing it for years, and new young merc corps start all the time, and I genuinely want them all to be successful, sadly alot of them don't know the business, have never been apart of a successful merc corp, and more often then not the corp collapes shortly after it starts. Thats sucks, but thats the game, it's not suppose to be easy, the cream will always rise to the top, and those that are not the cream of the crop will fail, it's harsh but thats eve, and IMHO it's what makes eve great.
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There certainly are opportunities for PvP in high sec, but fact remains the vast majority of war decs are targeting null sec logistics and high sec industrialists and miners, and while idealistically this would provoke fights, in practice you only get ganks. This is why people are so dismissive of high sec warriors, few expect their targets to fight, although I am sure there are some who purposely wardec other war-like corps.
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That's my point, why should WAR be cheap/er than it is now, whether it's for you or some other dude trying to grief a bunch of noobs for "cheap", worry free kills?The only arguement I see from you, is that it's hurting YOUR wallet too much, without even a mention of how much it's hurting the poor sombitch that you've been war-deccing. Kinda selfish of you isn't it?That is CCP's point in making them more expensive than they were in the previous iteration, it has to hurt YOU (the war-deccer) as much as it's going to hurt those you war-dec, to discourage "grief-deccing" (like it was in the old system). Again, if you can't afford it, then you've got no business war-deccing anybody, period.And this grandios notion that WAR is supposed to be profitable for anyone to do, is what makes wars the joke of a system that they were/are now.Wars are meant to be the LAST RESORT in resolving disputes, not the first step.War should only be profitable to those "mercinaries" that GET PAID to fight wars for those that can't, and should be reflected (the war-dec costs) in their (the mercs) fees they charge for their service. And yeah, THAT should also hurt YOU, the person hiring the Mercs to do the dirty work for you, in regards to how much you shovel out of your wallet to pay for YOUR WAR.No more of this crap of hiring mercs to war-dec some poor bastard into submission, who has no idea as to why or from whom he's being war-decced, while you go on about your merry lil way without a care in the world (other than how much it's costing you).Now, I agree, the war-dec system needs more iteration, BUT only in terms of form and function of the system, NOT in terms of making wars "cheap/er" and or "easy" to do.No more of "war-dec for a week, let expire for a day, war-dec for another week, rinse and repeat" to make wars cheap to do. If you let a war "expire" then you should NOT be able to war-dec that corp again for another week (or longer). "Gaming" of the war-dec system like this, (and any other means) is PART of the problem of it being the joke of a system, that it is/was, and IS what needs to be fixed by CCP.Sure, maybe "costs" do need a lil bit of tweaking by CCP, BUT never should go towards the aim of making WARs cheap for ANYBODY.
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Many things in EVE take time. You don't have access to many skills, ships, modules and mechanics until you have more SP trained. Is it a poor mechanic a new player can't afford or get into a dread early in their career? Is that too elitist? Unfair?By asking for drastically lower war dec costs, you're not taking into consideration unintended consequences. Or maybe you are and don't care. Just like making supers/titans easier to kill doesn't mean more will die (actually fewer will die), making war decs cheaper won't give you more fights or even more targets. Risk averse players that you are not war decing currently but would like to if it was cheaper will simply find other ways to avoid you. Ultimately, if they can't play the game they will leave. Which might be fine if your vision of EVE is high sec filled with elite PvPers brawling it out. As is, there is a relatively small portion of high sec that will give you your mythical 'good fites', and they are still cheap to war dec.
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"I'm not sure if you completely grasped what I was criticizing about all this; we aren't asking people to lose members in wars against us or claiming that we are seriously damaging their war efforts".Wrong i completely grasp what you are saying I just disagree with you. Disagreeing with you is NOT the same thing as not understanding your point. I think you are grossly overestimating the damage a few freighter losses will do to nullsec entities, out of corp logistics isn't the exception in null, its the ruleAgain you've focused on the wrong point, YOU claimed that nullsec alliances laugh it off because of "hubris", I merely told you that they laugh it off because it doesn't affect any real goal that they want to achieve. The pilots who would lose a freighter because they didn't use an out of corp logistics are the same pilots who lose billions and billions of isk to stupid ratting losses, and that is why when some hi sec war deccer comes to us and expects payment to stop a wardec they are laughed at.
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"For a new guy in high sec of the same mentality, 50mil is out of his price range."For 20 guys, not so much. EVE is a team game, it's much easier with others. You wanna be a lone wolf in an MMO, help yourself.
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Where do you get the idea, that you SHOULD be able to "break even" EVERY month (or even "profit" EVERY month)?Your asking for garunteed "isk making" from wars? Are you kidding me?Again, only caring about YOUR wallet, and none for the person your profiting from.Start putting some "balance" to your arguements, THEN you might get people to actually listen to you (whether or not they actually agree with you, is another story).
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Well I've never heard it that way, but if you like. I don't see what's so bloody insulting about it.
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Then I guess I can't help you. vOv
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What the hell are you on about? Nevermind, just get the fuck out!
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"The paywall is incredibly higher than it has ever been: to run a profitable PVP organization now takes a huge amount of experience, organization, and effort; without these things, a warring corporation is liable to run out of funds from war fees alone."Let me flip your argument. "To run a profitable PVP corporation, it should *not* take significant experience, organization, or effort." Is this really what we want in high-sec?
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"...hey are a rare and magical unicorn among the other alliances in the nullsec scene;"Classic.

Hisec PVP is something few people consider good, citing any selection from a cornucopia reasons. "There's no risk," they will say, or "look at these pubbies with their 38 neutral logi." Many of the alliances with the largest recruiting and propaganda machines immediately inculcate their players with the immutable concept that hisec is to be avoided and everyone there is a brainless miner and/or a gutless coward. It even extends to the point where the leadership of a nullsec alliance will almost invariably laugh in the face of any offer of truce or ransom from a hisec-based aggressor, not because they aren't doing grievous harm to the alliance's logistical infrastructure but because in their hubris they really think it cannot possibly matter. (They will often then go on to lose dozens of billions of ISK from their membership and logistic services.)

While this attitude may keep the membership of these alliances continuously active and productive in protecting their respective ancestral homelands, and even perhaps contain a seed of truth, the reality is far more complex. So, take a minute and try to void your mind of preconceived notions about hisec warfare and I'll tell you how it is.

The Clear Picture

Despite propaganda and widespread cultural assumptions, PVP in hisec is very fun. It's engaging, it's challenging in ways completely unfamiliar to your average null-bunny, and there are a myriad of options all around you. Nowhere else in the game can you quite get the same frisson of cat and mouse with only you and your opponent, almost as in a vacuum: a vacuum of uninvolved neutrals hiding their scouts, and myriad unrelated parties filling up d-scan and obfuscating the playing field. It's very challenging mechanically and extremely rewarding to get it right... and it's a crucial element of the game. Hisec, like everywhere else in EVE, should be a place where the rules are unique but your actions still matter; if those who don't want to fight are forever left to their own means this is never going to happen. Wars historically maintain this vicious balance, and we should work to ensure that they continue to do so.

Back in late 2009 and early 2010 I made my first serious forays into hisec warfare looking for a respite from the pervasive idiocy of my alliance mates. I quickly discovered that this was entirely viable: even with only one person, it was easy to scrape together enough ISK to keep myself deep with official enemies for weeks and months at a time. At 2-6 million ISK a war it was wondrously easy, and the fighting was excellent. It was perhaps the best introduction I could have had to the wider world of small gang and solo PVP, it's an environment I have enjoyed immensely ever since, and it's something I hope can be available to anyone.

There have always been plenty of good reasons to PVP in hisec. Lots of good fights are to be had. Some of those tired of having to choose between participating in over-large fleets and being frequently and uncontrollably outnumbered without warning may find that fighting in high-security space is a wonderful respite from these problems. As described earlier, the scope of the arena is limited: there is no easy way to bring in dozens of unrelated friends to gank someone on either side of any given fight. There are no hot drops, no carrier reps, no Titan bridges, and an ever-present audience of uninvolved persons to occasionally interfere a bit and keep things interesting.

The environment also trends towards larger ships and smaller gangs. Frigates are of limited usefulness in a fight of significant size; their popularity in lower securities stems essentially from their ability to escape bubbles and gate camps (and for similar reasons they aren't popular in w-space, either). Fights in hisec trend towards HAC's, battlecruisers, and up while the number of pilots in an effective gang is much smaller, usually significantly less than ten — and often only two or three, or even solo. Fights have a bigger relative impact and each pilot's actions have a huge influence on the fight's outcome. (Fights between only twenty or so pilots in hisec often lead to ISK damage tallies outstripping what you see in fights between 100+ in nullsec.)

That is not to say that hisec PVP is some kind of perfect arena that is just right for everyone. The main problem most people have with fighting in hisec is the mechanics: the mechanics of combat are more complex than anywhere else in the game and dealing with aggression graphs and keeping tally of who can shoot whom quickly spirals out of the realm of the easy. It's a difficult system to learn, even if you are only fighting in wars without getting involved in more fluid and transient activities like baiting.

The Toll of Inferno

Sadly wars got stomped on in Inferno and there are now huge mechanical problems (see: Dec Shield 2.0), virtually total safety for any independent corp with less than about 20 members (due to high minimum cost of war declaration), and basically too much expense for most people hoping to get into it (again, with a 50 million ISK per war minimum). All the notifications for wars are buggy, come at odd times, or do not come at all. The actual information in the notifications may be confusing, misleading, incomplete, or outright false. There are supposed to be waivers for wars that you did not specifically initiate (such as when corporations leave an alliance) that keep them from adding to costs; however, during certain times of day they still do, and even then in a strangely inconsistent manner. War bills appear in the corporation wallet at strange intervals, do not always indicate what war they actually apply to, and will sometimes never disappear at all. (I have a 150 million ISK war bill for a corporation that closed nigh 4 months ago, and I am not unique in this regard.)

Then there is the problem of high costs. Hisec PVP from the perspective of most who make their living there seems to be dwindling and many of the corporations and alliances that once made big names for themselves there are gone or leaving. For years prior to the nerf, Privateers and groups like them were able to sustain wars against eight or ten of the fifty largest alliances in the game on a continually rolling basis. As of the Inferno change, precious few of those who formerly made hisec warfare their home ground have left for greener, less buggy pastures.

The Near Future

The Winter expansion seems to be aimed directly at the hisec PVP environment. Much needed changes like logistics aggression and the addition of a (hopefully viable) improved bounty hunting program are an undeniable plus. Much more controversial are the changes to Crimewatch: as necessary as they may be for the sake of simplicity and continued server performance, there are a lot of things that will be changing. Many PVP opportunities in hisec are going away, and not all of them have direct replacements. At the very least I do feel that the changes to logistics and universal aggression as it relates to warfare (if I understand them correctly) will have a greatly beneficial effect on the hisec warfare scene, nerfing logistics and especially nerfing neutral logistics: from Retribution on out, only in-corp logistics will be viable (without getting shot by everyone), preventing your 38 neutral logistics from walking single file to hide their numbers. In this way trying to set up a fight where you have large numbers of logistics will be a much greater challenge and brawling it out fair and square with a smaller number of them will be much more viable. This simplification of aggression mechanics should also include a larger swath of the populace able to come to grips with the mechanics of fighting in hisec: No more labyrinthine aggression chains and no more invincible neutrals.

Also on the positive side of things it seems CCP are interested in fixing the grievous problems plaguing the war system. The Inferno patch was a half-assed stopgap that essentially broke as many things as it fixed, often for the worse; fortunately recent news from the CSM seems to indicate that most of these bugs are being addressed. One can only hope. Unless these issues are fully addressed, there can be no healing and hisec warfare will expire, bled out into the sand.

The Problem with Wardec Fees

If all goes well, this only leaves the problems of price scaling. Currently it can cost a vastly different amount of ISK to declare war on various groups depending on the order and time of day in which the wars are declared... different even by billions of ISK. I view this as a mechanical problem (and fortunately, it seems CCP does also). Right now the entire price of the member-inflated bill is multiplied by the number of active wars, rather than simply added onto with a multiple-of-50 million ISK per war fee, something that took me aback when I first encountered it. The base cost levels are also very high: to get into what one might consider to be a serious and profitable war can cost hundreds and hundreds of millions of ISK before a single target is shootable. I cannot help but feel that the entire playing field is intensely unwelcoming to those it is best suited for.

Allow me to explain: Back in the day, hisec wars were an awesome way to get into PVP in a limited scope because you could fight a limited and specific group of people for a completely paltry sum of ISK. There were only restrictions on the number of wars you could have at once... which posed its own problems, but I digress. The primary drawback of this accessibility was that wars were often laughably petty; no one was safe because anyone could start wars with virtually no effort or expense. In response to this, CCP has simply made all wars non-trivially expensive even for rich folk. The paywall is incredibly higher than it has ever been: to run a profitable PVP organization now takes a huge amount of experience, organization, and effort; without these things, a warring corporation is liable to run out of funds from war fees alone. I myself am currently managing, but I imagine our alliance gains membership to a terrifyingly small elite simply by doing so.

A happy medium must therefore be achieved. Fees need to be at a level that is high enough to discourage frivolous wars, but low enough for the war scene to be accessible for aspiring PVPers and encourage the players to truly fight for their success in hisec. War fee scaling therefore needs to be looked into again (that is, again again, after the recently announced changes that only add to the costs), and possibly re-curved entirely; a lower limit of 50 million ISK to start ANY war is simply not low enough. For most characters with less than a year in the game that is a hefty chunk of change. The removal of the horrifyingly inconsistent war fee multiplier is an excellent change in the right direction. I don't necessarily think that the war fees should necessarily be any cheaper than they are today for declaring war against larger organizations, but if war fee minimums were lowered to 20 million ISK (at least for corporations) we could well see a much more active and involved hisec PVP environment where fledgling sky-pirates can comfortably get involved on a smaller and more personal scale without breaking the bank.

The Ideal Future

The continued health of the hisec PVP environment is something that everyone should care about, whether or not you are interested in participating or feel it directly affects you. The very core concept of "high security" space holding as many dangers as lowsec and wormholes is intrinsic to EVE's vision as a game. With strong and interesting PVP content in hisec there could always be a glimpse into EVE's broader and deeper gameplay for anyone in the game. We needn't have missioners who simply run missions for months, never seeing a fight or participating in one. I envision a hisec where the mechanics make for solid fighting, where not every player and corporation willing to stand up and fight (Like Men Once Did) has long left for lowsec and the outer null. I have a dream where hisec is not the realm of "irrelevant scrubs," but a zone where those without enemies can play in relative peace while those with must duke it out mano-a-mano. It is in the spirit of the game.

[name_1]
I am a member of Project Nemesis, a small and dedicated PVP organization with a long and storied history. I have an in-depth knowledge of ship fitting, small gang warfare, and most game mechanics. I have a strong interest in improving hisec warfare.