ECM Changes in Context

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yay i may finally rat guristas and not get jammed like fuck. other than that interesting changes not really sure how i feel about them.
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Not the ECM nerf we deserve, but the ECM nerf we need.
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Fit ECCM Anyone?
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T1 frigates and "fruisers"Typo
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i do like this blog. read the prior post re: ecm and the nerf we need, and frankly didn't really like many of the ideas. all of them essentially carry the same problem of 100% severity in the event of a succesfull jam, even if the cycle is shortened. i prefer less serverity as the answer. consider this type of solution:ecm has a random chance of having different effects. instead of always breaking a lock and prevent a re-lock when successful , how about just turning a randomly selected module off? like a prop mod, or all high slots, or point/web? perhaps it could be more specific with certain modules having a direct affect, like module A turns off points/webs, module B turns off high slots?that way an entire ship isn't rendered useless, just certain modules, giving the target a fighting chance to make due with what remains working on his/her ship for the duration of the cycle.
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Uhm, flawed mathematics here. You have to calculate the range changes this way. All ranges are given for level 5 chars and related to the basic range of old ECM modules. No boosting modules or rigs involved.Old Scorpion: 200%, new Scorpion: 225% * 90% = 202,5% of old basic range, negligible buffOld Blackbird / Tengu: 150%, new Blackbird / Tengu: 162,5% * 90% = 146,25% of old basic range, negligible nerfOld Rook / Falcon: no range bonuses, 100%, new Rook / Falcon: 90% of old basic range, nerfOld Kitsune: 150%, new Kitsune: 150% * 90% = 135% of old basic range, nerfThat's neither "a slight range buff" for the Blackbird and the Tengu, nor "a fairly massive one" for the Scorpion.However, I agree with you on all the other stuff. I especially dislike how they spread the defense over four skills that do nothing else.
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My ratting tengu says thank you.
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Bastards nerfed my battlebadger!Much offense taken, what can I fly on drunkroams now?
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Funny how you stare at ECM whilst ignoring ALL other ewar changes. And so your whining will go on I bet... *sigh*
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How if only they would nerf those damn ECM drones!My suggestion: lower their jam strength by .5 each, so lights are .5 meds are 1 and heavies are 1.5 rather than 1, 1.5, and 2
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EAFs arn't really worth mentioning with their abysmally piss poor range anyway, to fully take advantage of the ship you have to either Rig it for range, or fit Low/Mids with Sensor Augmentors/Sensor Boosters (sacrificing tank/ewar on a bad slot layout)
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Well, the article IS called "ECM Changes in Context" so I'm not sure why you'd expect more v0v
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I dont find it funny at all. ECMs are by far the most effective ewar type. Against dampeners you can move closer. Against disruptors you can web and/or sic your drones on em. Against ECMs you can sit there and watch your ship melt.Im ignoring target painters for obvious reasons.
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mine says fuck you for heavy missile nerf. but let's see how the HAM-buff plays out..
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Perhaps Guristas space will become liveable now......Nah!
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"Others who small gang or solo roam typically agree ECM requires little skill and leaves its victims with few options for a full twenty seconds, which is an infuriatingly long time in the midst of combat."The problem with this line of thinking is in the assumption there is anything wrong with leaving "victims" (lol) few options for a full 20-seconds. 95-99% of the pvp in eve is less than evenly matched and gank-based, in the first place. Crying foul because one particular mod, if it's even fit, denies you the opportunity to leverage typically grossly disproportionate odds against your opponent for 20-seconds sounds suspiciously like crying in your panties.
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Downvoted because of Hornet EC-s not caring too much
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Dumb question: does this mean that probing down enemy ships will be harder (assuming people train up the appropriate skill for the race of their ship)? I see a buff to sensor strength, but no additional buff to keep probing at the same level it is...
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Nevermind, just read the CCP post, they're aware of the effect on probing and are working on a fix for that.
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So... very limited and specific options, and a fitting strategy that hampers your ability to do most everything else effectively, all to account for ONE type of warfare.Yep.
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Victim is the correct word for it. If you get stabbed, you're the victim of a stabbing. That's just English. Would you rather I used "subject" or "affected targets"?Also, I'm just sharing that a lot of people who are very skilled at solo PVP feel the same way about ECM. The effect of ECM should scale up and down with skill, just like every other e-war, instead of jamming for twenty seconds always (the fact that drones can do this is particularly stupid).
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If I understand you correctly, you want the cycle to be affected by the level of the pilot. If this is it, then I find this a rather fitting balancing. A ship fitted with a pilot with the Electronic Warfare skill at level 1, fits an ECM module, that module would have a cycle duration of 10 seconds, whereas at skill level 5 would be around the ballpark figure of 17.5 for example. The range nerf/buff is ludicrous in my opinion and would render most ECM capable ships useless, even in bigger engagements. Small gang PvP is almost like playing Russian roulette, most of the time you may be lucky (encountering any other fits other than ECM), but sometimes are not (encountering ECM and not be properly fit to counter it).
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I think your choice of words indicates a predisposition toward melodrama, in casting yourself in the role of a victim (boo-hoo!), to at least some degree. As far as I'm concerned, this is corroborated by the overall tone of your writing and to some extent the choice in topic, itself, when considered under the totality of the circumstances. Apparently, from the upvotes, I'm not the only one who thinks that.There are obviously any number of different ways to say the same thing, including merely substituting the word "target" for "victim", as you, yourself, noted, but that's not where you instinctively went with your word choice. That you are invoking "stabbings" is both melodramatic and telling, too. Even in its most aggressive, offensive use (say a number of Scorpions in an Alpha Fleet), ECM is ultimately, inherently defensive, whereas stabbings are the application of damage, itself. So, that's a poor choice for qualifying your word selection by any meaningful standard. ***It's disingenuous to purport the party who is the aggressor (usually not just by semantics, either) is also the victim, and, thus, I find that a bit funny.***I know exactly what you are sharing, and merit by unqualified association (with "skilled pvpers") is not particularly impressive. My commentary remains undiluted by your pointing it out. I think I would have been more receptive to your article had you not pitched it from the standpoint of the victim. In fact, that was the point of my terse comment. What you are proposing doesn't seem like a horrible idea, though you didn't state it anywhere nearly so clearly as in your comment above, and I think the clarification serves you well. I'm saying that the sense of entitlement exuding from the "skilled pvper" crowd is particularly ironic for a group so fixated upon its own ganking grandeur.
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Don't worry, tiericide is coming to town.
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Can someone please explain to this poor chap how Paper/Rock/Scissors works? Or better yet.... don't.
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Make sense people, most of the solo fights last about a minute, enemy with 5 ec-300 drones being able to perma-jam you for the entire time. How many times you had this cynabal in low armor, only to get jammed by his ec drones and see him run off like a fat kid with diarrhea?Ok I can deal with the fact that ECM is an integral part of the game, and It's not really about being jammed, it's the length of the jamming cycle, which is 20 bloody, long seconds. Twenty seconds is an eternity during small scale combat. They should vary this time depending on the jammer skills, and target sensor strength, from a lock break to a full cycle. Adding or removing range on jamming ships doesn't make much difference. You will be jammed for 20 seconds, even if the dude you're fighting has 5 ec drones, or if he's using a wrong racial jammer, I find it hard to understand why my magnetometric sensors are disrupted by a ladar jammer? TL/DR:Remove/Nerf ECM drones. If not remove them, make ec-300 lockbreaker drones, ec-300 5 sec jam, and ec-600 10 second jam. Will work fine too.Vary jamming cycle length depending on skills and target sensor strength, shortest a lockbreak longest 10-15sec jam.Allow targeting systems to be affected only by specific racial or multispectral ECM.Howgh. Now go spit at me, I dare ya.
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I like how OP conveniently neglected to include "chance to jam" in this little tirade. ALL other EWAR except for ECM is works 100% of the time, everytime you activate that module. Get a few dampers and a webing tackle on a ship and it's just as dead ... what are you going to do about disrupters? I mean a few of them and you're not hitting $hit and there's nothing you can do about that. Hell even a bunch of painters + torps = dead ...Now back to ECM and "chance to jam" ... ever try jamming ECCM scimis? Unless you have spent a bunch of time skilling up ECM & recon, good luck with that. 20seconds of a module doing nothing, until you are LUCKY enough to get a jam off on your target. Oh I forget that 30% chance to jam your target is too overpowered. Most of the time it's going to be 50/50 ... if it doesn't work you die. <sigh>Why punish the folks who DID skill up for ECM AND are smart enough pilots to pick targets that they know they can get jams off on? Fact is every EWAR ship is paper thin, you get it close, it's going to die. you have to use them at range or die, last I checked no EWAR ship could fit a point longer then 20-30km, so why did you die instead of warp off? So you are again going to punish people for using the ships as they are designed.If you know your enemy is going to field ECM, counter it ... if you don't know they are going to field ECM, then don't engage them. If you are a solo PVPer, don't whine because you can't kill every ship that jumps thru the gate, pick your damn targets better. Let the flaming begin. :)
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So long as you can be unprobable, the sensor strength mechanic is broken.
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And where is this "small gang" roaming to? If you are going into any place with decent intel, they are going to know you are coming, what you have, and form their fleet according. Maybe intel channels need to be nerfed now too. Or maybe you should use a scout instead of blind jumping your $hit into a wall of ECM & bubbles. Eve is not fair, it is not equal and it is not nice to everybody ... I guess you are new here still.
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pretty good buff for Marauders that racial sensor skill :D Maybe I can blow the dust off my maligned PVP Kronos
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You , sir, have no idea how ECM works. Shorter cycle time means more attempts to jam, which will result getting jammed more frequently. I would love to see this just for the tears that it would generate. Reducing the cycle time of almost any module results in a benefit of some kind. Prop mods and non-ECM EWAR being the exceptions. Number of attempts over a set time is why ECM drones are so powerful.
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I need to address all the idiots that think reducing jam cycle time is a good thing. This will result in more jam attempts being made during the same amount of time. Thus, you will get jammed MORE! It is the sole reason why EC-300s are so good. But by all means, continue to pressure CCP to decrease cycle time on jammers. I will laugh all day while perma-jamming your ECCM-fitted logistics.
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Quafe Badger armed with civilian railguns.
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It's not just 20 seconds. It's 20 seconds and the time it takes you to relock. Which, in a big ship, can be ages.So this is a terrible way to 'fix' ECM. Everyone will more or less have to train 4 pointless skills.Looks like the learning skills are making a comeback.

It's no big secret that I'm not a fan of ECM mechanics. Others who small gang or solo roam typically agree ECM requires little skill and leaves its victims with few options for a full twenty seconds, which is an infuriatingly long time in the midst of combat. I wrote a thing a while back describing in detail what is wrong and what should be done, but did CCP listen?

Kind of.

CCP Fozzie is pretty good at what he does. I like Tiericide, for the most part. The subtle nerfs to the Drake and Hurricane don't leave them obsolete, but will certainly reduce their effectiveness in blobs. T1 frigates and cruisers which were previously unused or underused are now powerful in a focused respect; they have roles, much like their T2 counterparts. Generally I've agreed with Fozzie's vision and I've been optimistic about where it may lead. And when Fozzie says "We're going to fix ECM," I believe him.

So today Fozzie posted an interesting piece of news to the Eve-O forums here. It covered Sensor Dampening (which is getting a buff), Tracking Disruption (getting nerfed in general, buffed on specialist ships), Target Painters (getting a slight buff), and finally ECM, which is getting a few changes:

ECM
*Reduce Optimal Range and Falloff of all ECM modules by 10%
*Add to the Optimal Range and Falloff bonus on ECM range bonused ships by 2.5% for the Blackbird and Tengu Obfuscation Manifold (bringing it to 12.5%) and 5% for the Scorpion (bringing it to 25%)
*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)

So non-ECM boats, ECM Recons and ECM frigates are getting a range nerf while the Blackbird and Tengu will get a slight range buff (12.5% - 10% = 2.5%) and the Scorpion will get a fairly massive one (25% - 10% = 15%). This is not an ECM nerf: This, like the tracking disruptor nerf, affects popular fleet hulls (Drakes and Zealots come to mind) with "utility mids" often filled with TDs or ECM. The real change is the last part concerning four new skills which increase sensor strength. 

As you probably know, ECM works by comparing the strength of the activated ECM module with the target's sensor strength. When sensor strength is higher, ECM has less chance of working. But sensor strength also determines how easily a ship is probed down, with higher sensor strength being favored by things like booster T3's and Command Ships. This skill does not discriminate between ECM (which many feel is broken) and ship probing (which is fine). It's also a pain to train a skill merely to address a single type of Ewar, and even moreso when you consider that you need to train four separate skills in order to gain the sensor strength boost across all races. It doesn't help that these are also Rank 3 skills, making them a considerable skillpoint sink.

Retribution will not have the ECM nerf we need, and it's probably not the one Fozzie wants, either. The end of the post mentions that "these changes are not the final solution for ewar by a long shot, they are incremental changes that will build towards the more complete changes we would like to make to the mechanics." In other words, there's not enough time before December 4th to implement a fully-loaded Ewar overhaul, but we should expect something bigger and better SoonTM

Hilmar Keller
The blackest member of Kugutsumen.com.