Diplomacy in the Age of Coalitions

Avatar
This is an incredibly simple-minded and shallow review of simple facts, and this article offers no original insights or analyses one could not find from a newcomer post on Kugu. It's like your fifth grade teacher asked you to write a book report on James_315's piece.I am fairly sure this is at least the fifth article since August on the modern era of coalitions, and you're failing to make any new commentary on the subject.If you're just going to paraphrase James_315's article on coalitions as well as his article on the HBCFC diplomatic fuckup, at least cite him in your footnotes. Or write about something else.
Avatar
Am I the only one tired of these articles by now? T_T
Avatar
You are also hideously wrong on the goal of Montolio's propagandawar on FA:"Both are solid members of the CFC; in no way, shape or form was CONDI going to sit by and watch the HBC destroy FA. Montolio’s notion that he could get rid of FA without a full CFC versus HBC war was roughly the equivalent to someone believing that they can fight the US Marine Corps without the US Army getting involved."That is the point. TEST absolutely knows the CFC is obligated, even if Zagdul is properly painted as some evil intel-selling cloak-and-dagger Dr. Evil, to defend member alliances no-questions-asked.This wasn't about provoking FA into a war -- it was about fanning flames for TEST to go to war, pulling the whole of the CFC and HBC along for the ride. If mistakes were made along the way, it was in failing to create a large enough phantom boogeyman for the HBC to rally against.
Avatar
Yes
Avatar
You are not alone.
Avatar
It was well written and I especially liked the analogy about fighting the Marines and not expecting the Army to jump in. That being said I feel the digital ink would be better put to use covering the war going on in the south between N3 and SOLAR et. al. I only found out about it by stumbling across a Twitch stream broadcasting the fights down there. Unfortunately, TM.com seems to be turning into a GOON/TEST mouthpiece more and more each day.
Avatar
"-- it was about fanning flames for TEST to go to war" SO then go to war TEST. What, you dont wanna go to war without PL doing the heavy lifting with supers? Then you need to reevaluate your abilities and maybe go at someone smaller than the CFC..might I suggest Nulli, Ncdot, Black Legion, Red Alliance, Scdot- all of them deserve a vicious beating
Avatar
The last sentence is paranoid and silly. It's a function of the writer staff. I'm pretty sure there's not a single writer associated with this site that is involved on either side of that war.I do agree that they should cover it.
Avatar
I enjoyed the article..not sure what problem is..its a mystery
Avatar
You should apply to become a writer if you think something isn't being covered properly.
Avatar
okay here is the solution YO WRITERS we (HBC and CFC) can point and laugh at both sides of N3 vs SOLAR
Avatar
I disagree that GSF, or TEST, are immune to failure cascade, since when Goons moved to Syndicate in the wake of losing Delve, then struggled to take Cloud Ring from Evoke the line member enthusiasm and participation dropped off the edge of a cliff. Had they not been handed Deklein by TCF they may well have collapsed.A strong internal culture raises resistance to failure cascades but by no means does it make an entity immune to them.
Avatar
I strongly disagree with the idea that coalitions should be hardwired into EvE at all. I'm not sure what function they could possibly add over what alliances have without being redundant.
Avatar
There were some talks about implementing coalition ingame on the CSM minutes. It didn't seemed like something close to be made, but it's not impossible, I don't think it would be that hard to code, and would fit well with some modifications allowing things like transferring sov structures between entities, a system which already exist for POCOs.
Avatar
I wrote this on the 23rd, before Jame_315's article hit and I knew about it. If I had sourced him in any way I would have credited him, but everything is original analysis.As far as I know, and I've not been neglecting real life to surf the internet if I do not, no one else has examined the CCP angle of this. They should add a coalition mechanic. I wouldn't even be that hard to code.
Avatar
A much better solution would be for Test and the rest of the HBC to team up with Nulli, NCdot, Black Legion, Red Alliance and SCDot and come after the CFC without PL.
Avatar
(Duplicate comment. Disqus seems to hate me.)
Avatar
Andrew, nobody understands half your posts, they're ether bad trolls, or incoherent herp derp.
Avatar
This article is propaganda designed to lull one into never trying to break up the CFC. It is defensive. Nice try.
Avatar
"wahhh you evil coalitions blue half of eve!!!" *whispers to other half* "hey, wanna blue up?"
Avatar
Oh, and BTW, I am so sick of hearing about how SA and Reddit hold these guys together. Half or more of each of these alliances never log into SA or Reddit. Its BS.
Avatar
I think everyone is tired of hearing about it, at least until SBUs drop and timers are set.
Avatar
wow the butthurt is strong with this one.
Avatar
Wow, Great comeback you pubbie piece of shit. Did you learn that in middle school debate team?SA and Reddit do shit all to hold us together. At 9 and 10k members a piece (really just a couple of thousand real world people), no forum on the interwebs can hold that many different opinions together. That argument has lost its validity and yet someone keeps making it.
Avatar
What is happing with the drone Russians and HBC????
Avatar
:iceburn: Hi ncdot =)
Avatar
Coordinated standings list for diplomats.
Avatar
Self-serving and/or delusional garbage piece.With so many interesting topics revolving around this non-war, this article was disappointing to say the least.A pet is not a pet based on the manner you treat it. I'm sure Mittens loves his dog, and treats it as family. That doesn't make it any less of a pet. It's a question of dependency. The dog is not a friend of Mittens, it's existance is dependent upon Mittens whereas Mittens existance is not dependent upon it.What GSF have managed to do though, besides masterfully turning the public image for the weak-minded uncouth part of the public (treatment, serving as the "treat" to the barks ;)), is identifying the value of numbers and maintaining better relations that empower their serfs and enable them to better supply numbers. It's still without doubt though that GSF alone lead the CFC, form policy and maintain ambition. Do the CFC not remove block-members due to poor performance, do they leave strategic decisions solely up to a junior partner? Hardly. What they don't do is bark in the park like some other familiar community-voices do.The same goes for this war: Monty didn't become a "pet" when Shadoo posed an ultimatum regarding the presumtive war, there was already a hierarchy and dependency in place; and the relation between PL and TEST is far more co-dependent than that of GSF and FA as they each supply something the other does not have; while it's also not as socially intertweened as neither adopts the culture of the other or fully form policy alone. It's less hierarchical, but still a hierarchy as one is more dependent on the other. If FA put down their foot, would GSF not have gone to war if they had already decided upon it internally?A pet is something dependent, in practise, and questions inquire: How many junior partners in the sov blocks fit that bill? How many junior partners would likely cease to exist outside their current position in a block, not only in sovspace but in all environments and at all scales?
Avatar
I died a little inside after reading this article.
Avatar
Why should CCP waste resources to implement mechanics which players have already perfected on their own?I'd rather CCP focus on POS's and the retarded amount of EHP needing destroyed to wage war. As it stands, the players are doing a great job at making really shitty mechanics fun by not invading, but still going to war.
Avatar
Because you're reading that to mean "just happen to post to the same website." SA play a lot of games together (as well as 1001 other things) and Eve isn't even too common of an example (other games have much larger amounts of players from SA).The CFC may fall, and GSF might get destroyed as we know it today, but nothing is going to make your average Goon log in and play this game with random pubbies (also, you're a pubbie calling a goon a pubbie, which is pretty hilarious when you parse that culturally) since most only play the game to play with Goons, and would sooner play some other game with them, than this one without them.Most would say Eve is a shitty game made good because they play with Goons, which is frankly the truth of it.The 'argument' has validity in past history and not just theory, unless you can name me another Eve alliance that has been around as long as GSF, has lost everything more than once, had betrayal from leadership, but not failcascaded?
Avatar
This pathetic attempt at an article is almost as bad as a "Greatest Hits" album by a one hit wonder.
Avatar
So much for no war :D , cfc titan down, huge cfc/hbc cap fight in asakai
Avatar
Ah, I catch your point here. Much has transpired since the 23rd. Shame on the timing, but I guess that's just the nature of a well-stocked article queue.Coalitions as an in-game mechanic? A proposal for the mechanics and features of a hypothetical in-game coalition executor window would be fascinating. What sort of personnel roles would you, Alizabeth, want to see in such a system, and what capabilities would you envision giving them?
Avatar
Actually a more credible reason for the start of WW1 was the Bahgdad Rail Link - google it, it comes down to oil again. The fact a a world war of such scale and so many lives lost was because one person got assasinated is laughable and imo a childrens story to paint the allies golden. Propaganda in other words. Much like this article likening 3 neckbeards to important people an events in history.
Avatar
Coalitions do not need in game support. Alliances where a mistake also. Corps should be the largest entity that can hold sov.CCP should go back and figure out treaties to support any group bigger than a corp, if CCP should be involved at all.
Avatar
Wow, another coalition piece...... How many coalitions articles have been written since this websites went up? We get it, you like coalitions, coalitions are awesome, and cool..... but do we really need a coalition article once a month? Lets try spreading them out alittle, how about once every two months.
Avatar
Actually, in WW1 some of the "blues" "reset" each other. Stating that coalitions are monolithic and stable is the same as if you were to say alliances are monolithic and stable. Everything can fall apart, and while TEST and Goonswarm have more internal cohesion than the average alliance, the coalitions they lead don't necessarily.
Avatar
Here here, zagdul for CSM
Avatar
I STOPPED READING WHEN YOU COMPARED FA TO THE MARINES.
Avatar
Hey buddy, seems you have a reading malfunction! Specifically, where I said "made good" should have been an indication that, indeed, it was a positive experience. "Because of" should have been your clue that this was a conditional statement. I then explain why.Your response is nonsensical because you're not replying to anything I said; did you perhaps mean to reply to someone else?I look forward to future discussions with you when we can agree on the subject of a sentence.If you are indeed not mistaken, then please save yourself some words by simply saying "I AM ANGRY AND THIS IS A RETARDED STRAWMAN ARGUMENT"Thank you.
Avatar
Maybe you meant to express something else, but you quite definitely wrote that there are people who actually do not particularly like EVE [would say Eve is a shitty game] but they like to play any game with their Goon friends [made good because they play with Goons].Also, 'because of' is in no way part of a conditional statement. It is an expression of causality. In fact you say yourself that Goons wouldn't play EVE if they couldn't play with other Goons.So, the game is _only_ made good in the view of your assumed Goon player, because it has other Goons in it to play with. You also say that the exact game doesn't even matter [made good because they play with Goons]There is one thing where I agree with you: I could have used less words and said things in a less roundabout way. Like for example: If you don't care for playing this game and all the "pubbies" who play it why don't you get lost?
Avatar
I dunno man, I've said the people involved like playing the game like twice now, but you seem really intent to tell me to go away because I don't like it?Here's a quiz: If I say ice-cream is too cold of a treat, made good by a summers day, does that mean I don't like eating icecream on a summers day?I really invite you, this time, to try to properly parse the statement instead of skipping to passive-aggressive trolling.v0v
Avatar
Invalid comparative analogy.Accusation of defensive aggression while I never used any aggressive, condescending or insulting language while you did.v0v indeed.Stop bothering, I'm just a pubbie anyway.
Avatar
CCP does not need to create a way to have "coalitions". They already exist and we don't need a useless skill added that only 0.05% of the eve population will use. People can make fun of FA - but if you stop and look at where they are today, they are far more skilled than anyone gives them credit for. As for the big war being averted - frankly I think it's out of sheer fear on the mittani's behalf. The true test would be to be at war with someone of equal size / skill - the HBC does that for the CFC. The CFC can state they are great cause they take 150 people to a 30 man fight - but can they take 150 people to a 150 man fight and get the same results? We won't know because they won't try. Why not do a full on reset and let the chips fall where they may? Why are huge coalitions needed ? It's one thing to have standings or NIP's in place but making most of the sov holding universe blue defeats the point of being in null sec. Is that where all the care bears have gone? Seems like it! Grow a spine or get some balls Mittani - fight Montolio.
Avatar
So when do you stop adding new levels of organization? Alliances were deemed necessary because corps decided to work together? You claim official coalitions are necessary because alliances work together. What happens when coalitions want to work together, must CCP then roll out another level? If so, when do you stop? If not, why is coalition necessary?I also disagree completely with the notion that sov-holding alliances will "go the way of the dodo". When I think of all the sov being held at the coalition level all I can think about is how much easier it would be to fuck over the entire coalition with a well-placed spy. I also don't necessarily want to be grouped with my coalition that much more. I'm a member of the CFC but I HATE "goon culture" with a passion. Sure I will join a fleet with them and work toward mutual success but 10 minutes on their forum is enough to make me sick.

Now that war has been averted, it’s time to take a step back and reflect. Lots of digital ink is going to be used writing about what happened and the persons involved: The Mittani, Montolio, Shadoo and a few others. While the personalities are important—talking about the American Civil War without mentioning Lincoln would be historical malpractice—there is a systemic reason for this almost war: a misunderstanding of diplomacy in the age of coalitions.

In 1914, the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne was assassinated. The reason why anyone remembers this is World War One happened as a result. What should have been a small regional conflict turned into the second largest war of all time because all the major powers in Europe had spent the last century acquiring a list of blues to fight with them if things should hit the fan. If Austria-Hungary had realized invading Serbia meant total war across all of Europe, they probably would have decided to do something more fun, like fondue or something.

That was the lesson Montolio learned this week, if one is to take Bring Stability, the official Honey Badger Coalition (HBC) diplomat to the Clusterfuck Coalition (CFC), at his word:

(12:07:42 PM) Bring Stabity: It's the most eloquent way to kill FA without starting a CFC war

(12:07:51 PM) Bring Stabity: that way montolio gets what he wants, without a CFC war

(12:08:22 PM) Tector [CONDI]: why do you want to kill FA, other than the fact that they didn't respond to Monty's initial trolls?

(12:08:55 PM) Bring Stabity: Because if FA goes away, so does most of the animosity TEST has with the CFC

Montolio’s initial mistake was treating Fatal Ascension (FA) and Goonswarm Federation (CONDI) as two separate entities; they are not. Of course, they are two different alliances with different cultures, leadership and space. However, this is the age of coalitions. Both are solid members of the CFC; in no way, shape or form was CONDI going to sit by and watch the HBC destroy FA. Montolio’s notion that he could get rid of FA without a full CFC versus HBC war was roughly the equivalent to someone believing that they can fight the US Marine Corps without the US Army getting involved.

Coalitions have changed in EVE. The Greater BoB Community (GBC) might count as a coalition, but the relationships with their blues was very much a master/pet relationship. Pets are out. The Southern Coalition (SoCo) was the last example of a master/pet organization. Makalu Zarya would unironically yell at people, “You do not talk back to -A-.” Parties interested in what happened to -A- and the SoCo should check the sov influence map. They will find that -A- is not on the map.

Additionally, in the past, coalitions were put together ad hoc and then dissolved when the goal was achieved. The Drone Russian Federation (DRF) was created specifically to counter the Northern Coalition (NC). Once the DRF destroyed the NC, they dissolved. Most of the DRF alliances are either gone or shells of their former selves. White Noise, for example, is gone. Raiden. is now a member of the HBC with only seventeen systems’ worth of sovereignty. No one is going to make the mistake of dissolving a proven coalition on their own ever again.

CONDI and TEST are on good terms with each other at not only the leadership level but at the line member level as well. They both are clans with a home that is not founded in EVE Online: Goons hail from Something Awful and Dreddit hails from Reddit. When alliances or corporations are dealt a huge setback, such as losing all their space, that can lead to a fail cascade, such as happened to Morsus Mihi in the wake of the collapse of the NC. However, if tomorrow CONDI lost all its space because of the external forces at play, the alliance would not fail cascade. A few players and corps other than GoonWaffe might leave, but the alliance would remain comparably strong. The same is true with TEST and Dreddit. There was an attempt to keep the blue standings between the alliances in recognition of this, for lack of a better term, bond. However, both alliances are leaders of two separate coalitions. While it is possible to maintain friendship, blue status was overreaching.

The lesson that diplomats across EVE should take away from this event is simple: treat coalitions diplomatically as a single monolithic entity. Of course, in wartime, every attempt should be made to fracture them. In times of peace or neutrality, diplomats should not feel that CONDI can be treated differently and separately from the CFC. It will save lots of headache, late night Jabberlon 5 conversations, emergency Skype calls and acrimony.

In the past, CCP has responded well to the needs of the players, giving them better tools to do what they already were doing. When players were living out of giant secure containers, CCP introduced POSes. When corporations were banding together, CCP added alliances into the game. Sadly, CCP seems to have drifted away from this mindset and worked instead on things like monocles. With CCP’s latest announcement that they are not going to be redoing POSes any time soon, introducing coalitions into the game in the next expansion would win them some brownie points with the null-sec players. It could even come complete with its own marketing, a perfect way to comment about how huge EVE is. If I were to direct that video, I would start with a close-up of a battlecruiser firing its guns. A movie announcer voice would narrate: “This is Vic. Vic’s out flying today. Someone decided to attack Vic, which is a big mistake, because Vic is out flying with two thousand of his closest friends.” The camera would then zoom out slowly to reveal a giant fleet shooting another giant fleet. This would be much cooler than the Widow shooting mining frigates.

Coalitions are here to stay. They have existed in EVE for a while. Going forward, null-sec sov-holding alliances are going to go the way of the dodo. It’s going to become mandatory for sov-holding alliances to form coalitions. Currently, it’s difficult. Any information on who belongs in what coalition is posted on third-party sites or not at all. Some line members of certain alliances that are in coalitions have no idea whom exactly they are in a coalition with. For the ongoing health of null-sec sov space, CCP needs to implement in-game tools that players can use to form and manage coalitions. Diplomacy in the age of coalitions is difficult; for the sake of null-sec, CCP should make it easier.

Image: "Badge Warsaw Pact. The Union for Peace and Socialism," ©2012 Greite, used under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported.

Writer. Twitter: @AlizabethVea