Did the CFC Just Win EVE?

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TLDR: No, But i'm going to write about a bunch of shit about how goons are winning.
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Well, if the remaining areas banded together and pulled their resources.... Then they could defeat the goons. But since we're stupid fucking humans, that won't happen.
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Now where did we first hear about a war that was supposed to end all wars
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80% of players being in CFC doesn't mean they won eve - means nobody want's to play the game they just want to join and smack the win button... *Yawn*
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CFC/RUS actually ordered their sizable sub-cap fleets to leave the B-R system, as they contributed more lag than firepower.Incorrect. I spent 22+ hrs in B-R in a Guardian, doing what little I could to help delay kills, along with the rest of my fleet. It's true that after about the 3rd hour of the fight, new subcaps were diverted to the blockade fleets at the enemy staging systems, but the CFC most certainly did not order sub-capitals to leave B-R. Dominixes were attempting to apply neuts right to the end.This didn't happen in B-R. More importantly, it was discovered that N3PL's loss was due in large part to the mistakes made by PL's FCs (especially fleet commander Manfred Sideous) during the battle.I'd have to disagree with this, as well - early on, when Manfred Sideous made the decision to primary dreads, it wasn't a mistake. It was only as the escalation continued that the dreads became almost ornamental, with their guns unable to properly cycle. As someone w/a constant eye on how much damage was going where, I'd say the real mistake came after Manny left, when Vince took over and didn't refocus fire on someone else after the first hour of Sort Dragon's stand. If not for that period when PL/N3 lost 5 titans before finally getting another kill, things would have been far, far more precarious for us - to the point where those USTZ numbers might have been committed, rather than leadership making the very reasonable decision not to throw good money after bad.
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goons are solidly winning the battle of who could care less
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This is a lot of words to say "The sky isn't falling". Your piece on the TEST - CFC split also reeks of "Enlightened EVE News 24 truth Sayer" AKA you don't want to believe it so your conformation bias latches on Montolios statements.
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Goons won EVE when we killed BoB. The rest has all been epilogue, as far as I'm concerned.
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This is a fabulous brief article that gets right to the point without missing any details. Thanks as always!
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Treachery and slowly-creeping incompetence are always the easier and more reliable ways to bring down a Power. As a member of the CFC, I worry about one more than the other right now, but things can always change.
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The goons have not won eve, they killed it
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This is a great article that really talks about null-sec politics in a 'realpolitik' fashion. People tend to ignore history to their own detriment. As much as people cry 'propaganda' or 'rewriting history', I remember lots of these events as they occurred, and it's interesting to look back at them to string together the events into a coherent history.There's always going to be people that say 'EVE is dead' for whatever reason, but history has shown that EVE is alive and well, and will probably continue that way as long as people continue to play. Considering no other game gives the same type of multiplayer experience as EVE, I think people will continue to play for a long while yet.
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Should be interesting to see who turns on who when the blue doughnut is complete.
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Year after year, whining mongoloids say that EVE is dying because they got their snickers pushed in… and without fail, the next biggest conflict always breaks out. Keep screaming blue doughnut ladies, EVE is going to move on without your worthless analysis as each previous year has shown us.
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Sweet, a 7 page article - I actually like indepth articles #nottrolling
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the CFC can never rule all of null. the CFC lives on the basis of constant war, interrupted by brief periods of peace-time to grind money or do fun-deployments to venal or high-sec or wherever. without a common enemy, the CFC will find enemies in themselves, as sure as night comes after day comes after night.sure, you'll always find pvp somewhere, but it's the ideology that keeps any coalition together, the we vs. them. if "them" is nowhere to be found the CFC will tear itself apart in a magnificent era of total war and senseless destruction.of course, the first victims will be shit alliances like fail ascencion and their ilk
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Show us on the doll where FA touched you. The butthurt is strong in you.Also: as long as Shitlords like PGL&SirMolle will play EVE the CFC has sth to fight against
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yes, and as long as those people play eve the CFC won't have conquered all of null. or could you imagine molle or PGL permanently living in low or high?
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the cfc never aimed for conquering all of 0.0
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Nice write
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It's also something we don't know much about at the moment, and could end up just being a glorified WH2-experience with no appeal to the interactive sandbox itself. Not that Arrendis is wrong, but it's a very vague "might", and there are other things I'd throw my hopes and dreams to first :).
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Didn't Jayne set a new standard, and this is actually comparatively short? :P
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Mittens lied, the CFC almost died
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As a response to a seven page article, your 9 words doesn't carry much weight...
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For a guy with the name 'no mad' you seem pretty upset
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So many blue doughnut jokes, that's a <insert academy="" record="" joke="" here="">
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Are you seriously suggesting that half of my alliance leadership has been replaced by GIA operatives?Wait, am I just a sleeper agent who hasn't been activated yet?
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We all just like to watch and make things explode.. that imo is one of the main reasons so much back and forth piggybacking has been going on through EVE's history.
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How could James conceivably fact check that USTZ pilots were reluctant to get involved?I mean don't get me wrong, I enjoy James' writing but I know it's also extremely bias, and I'm sure if he had asked you or any other member of PL for their version of events I'm sure he would have got them.However he's made the statement that USTZ pilots didn't want to risk their ships on the basis of either: A) making it up or B) talking to "people" he knows (i.e. he was told it by someone).If he's making it up then it's probably best he doesn't waste your time bothering you with an interview which he will just ignore as even if he did interview you he'll just say you're lying. In fact he said as much in the article that you lied about the number of titans you had on field (I have no idea if you did or not).If he's based it off feedback from others, he's just going to have two conflicting points of view, in which case there's not really much "fact" involved as he can't just take your word over someone else's, either of you could be lying.I really have no idea how the N3PL side of the battle played out, and I certainly don't intend on using James' amusing but bias opinion pieces to form my opinion, but unbias reporting just doesn't happen for EVE as so much stuff is unverifiable.
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I got lucky my guns cycled at a decent rate in my dread and only had a problem once when I got the final blow where they got stuck for a few extra minutes.
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I'm not sure if he is biased as much as (someone else already pointed out) he is simply filling in information gaps with good fiction :).If anything, maybe that should be framed by the TMC editors.Nevertheless, it makes for good discussion. I'm sure you, as I, as everyone else have alot of details they want to correct but the article also invites to argue the larger points raised and you, as well as I, as well as everyone else can easily find two-three larger issues that some misconception or gap-filling may have illuminated.All in all, it's still a good read and basis for good discussion. It doesn't have to be right or true for that: just interesting, and it is :).
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I am suddenly reminded of the fact that the west supported the USSR in the great war only to have them challenge them at every turn after that war. I wonder if six months or a year from now we will see a massive Russo-Bloc invasion on CFC space. Time will tell comrade, time will tell.
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Despite this entire [somewhat questionable] article, it should be noted that Provi never changes.
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As long as Mittani leads the Goons it will not break apart. The fact is after TEST's departure the goons lost the only alliance that could challenge Mittani's authority. CFC has replaced the loss of test by adding several smaller alliances, ones that pose no threat if they succeed from the alliance, and would be easily wiped off the map. The only way for the CFC to fail now is if Mittani does something incredibly stupid that pisses off 4-5 of their alliances causing them to break away, and those alliances would have to include FCON, RAZOR, or FA. At this point I don't know what he could do that would cause any of them to break away, as long as Mittani provides safe ratting space, and SRP for members none of them are going to risk their sov to break away.The only scenario I can see where CFC breaks apart is if the complete the blue doughnut by setting the Russians blue, and taking the little space remaining from N3. They don't need to touch BoT space, as PL might as well set their standings to blue. Everyone knows they won't engage the goons in any meaningful way. At this point those alliances might start seeing huge drops in activity and might stage a coup as a final hurrah for EvE.
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it was actually a question,why does PL always seem to be the fairest of fair-weather friends and not have any spine or fortitude to see a war to its completion , u always seem to pull some meta bullshit and run away ..sorry maybe its just me but seems PL are only interested in pvp or wars where they know they will win-hence why most of 0.0 see you as risk-adverse pussies..please answer
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D-D-D-Damage control!
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Here is something to think about: If Provi-Bloc had actually given up their neutrality and decided to side with N3/PL in the BR fight and commit their supers. Would it have been enough to tip the scale in the favour of PL/N3.And what would losing the BR fight right after losing the HED fight have meant for CFC/RUS?Could it be that Provi-Blocs unwillingness to pick a side basically doomed any chance there was for the CFC to be defeated?(Think about this seriously for a second, despite the providence is terrible and providence has no capitals comments, they are still a sizable coalition and they could have made a difference.)
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Don't you mean "commit their super"?(I kid, I kid)
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As much as I think you're telling the truth, this is also a scenario where deceit would be beneficial. It is, after all, a matter of record that N3 "exaggerated" numbers during the fight.And by "N3 exaggerating", I mean /you/, Grath, deliberately posting false numbers on Kugu. Because I don't believe you're stupid enough to misread a spreadsheet right in front of you.So even though you probably aren't, the chance of the esteemed Grath spouting propaganda on a public forum to contain a damaging allegation (the veracity of which is immaterial) is demonstrably non-zero.
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You managed to find the question mark key AND a comma - I'm awestruck.
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So many things in there that made me happy I switched to Homeworld mods last year <33333333333
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You are asking him to reply to propaganda or some unfounded belief.If you expect and answer, include some substance of what behaviour you would have expected when and where, so he can answer you.Grath simply made a counter-point to James' supposition that PL USTZ didn't login during B-R because they didn't want to commit, with the comment that the node wouldn't let those ships enter as it were. I think that pointing out realities of the game (mechanics et. al.) in a slew of "meta narrative" can be very cathartic for the discussion itself at times.
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They see me dodgin...they hatin. (damage) Controllin they tryin to catch me riding dirty
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It's remarkable you insist on this...considering the hubris displayed in HED-GP.Shouldn't you all have known better?Can't it be presumed that the line members DID know better, and so didn't bother to login to prop up a corpse?Also, hundreds of people seemed to not have any problem relogging or entering the system late into the fight. Only your USTZ titan pilots had that problem, right? CFC reinforcements sure didn't.
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this is more goon propaganda
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I do kinda wanna see someone explore that concept.What would have happened if Providence actually did what Mittens acused them of and joined N3/PL?This war could have gone very differently.INB4 Provi is to blame for CFC taking over all of null.
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Muffin is Jelly
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Don't forget that every 'small' alliance has a director-level goon spy ready to pull the plug.
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I was there for so much of this story, but just as a line-member. Thank you James for putting it all together so succinctly that even I had to just drink it in. because often we dont even understand the total picture of the wars we actively wage.A truly fantastic piece of editorial sir.
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I think what this really asks is if having one big alliance on top makes Eve less fun. This is the only real important question. I think the answer is that it likely does, but it has for some time and likely will continue to for sometime. The sandbox metaphor is apt here, you get a big sandbox and sooner or later there's some cluster of bullies with marginal social skills who band together, the other kids eventually get tired of it and spend their time doing one of the thousands other things there is to do in life and the bullies are left with themselves.Congrats guys, we're getting to that point in Null sec and to less of a degree in the economy.For most of Eve though I'm not sure it matters much. Highsec folks keep doing their thing, even CFC needs to buy new sticks to bash each other over the head with. Wormhole folks keep doing their thing. Some folks may care of nullsec and sov is essentially a wet noodle but most of them have been complaining about nullsec being worthless for a long time now.If Eve lasts long enough, CFC will break down. Nothing lasts forever and if it becomes big enough it will start eating itself. It will be the new BoB and I wouldn't be surprised to see it put up a major eve site that is a thinly veiled attempt to pat themselves on the back and spread their own propaganda.Eve hasn't faced too much competition over the last decade but we're entering a period with what seems like a lot of potential competition on the Horizon with Star Citizen, Elite and a few others. Who knows what that means, it could bring those players into Eve, it could see everyone leave the sandbox for another CFC along hugging each other through it, CFC could leave to bully folks in another game, or they could all fall flat and Eve just grinds on like it has.At the end of the day CFC will change, Eve will change or both. Who knows if it's for better or for worse but the only thing I know is that, although things may flat-line for awhile, Eve is unlikely to become a static game and it's unlikely anyone win's Eve.
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The difference between HED- and B-R is that PL stood faced with the option of seeding the system, the trapped assets (lol) and the commited Supers or taking the risk of escalating on an unresponsive node.CFC in HED- on the other hand had no investment, attempted an uncertain headshot and used the outcome to discuss the balance of ships. It's very different when you attempt to escalate from a defensive or an offensive position.So, sure, they should have known the risks of an unresponsive node. You just make the mistake of assuming that they didn't, in contrast to feeling compelled to take the risk.If there is one "known better" you should tease them about it's that they shouldn't have staged overweight in B-R, because that isn't like them and worthy of derision :P.
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To be fair, it's really not hard to see that PL is always the first to abandon a war. I think that makes them smart, effective tacticians, since from their viewpoint, their allies are usually so 'terrible' that utter defeat is just a matter of time. Whether PL's continued presence would have changed the outcome of the fountain war or the halloween war is to be debated, but it's clear their leadership, at least, thought their presence was no longer warranted/necessary in either case.
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This is correct, and can be seen starting here: https://www.kugutsumen.com/sho...I get the value in lying about how many titans are on grid to make it seem like the people logging in aren't logging into a deathtrap, but while Grath may be telling the truth here about why the USTZ didn't show up he's not a reliable source and James is probably correct in his interpretation. As someone posted there, as the UTTZ was coming home, the rats were already starting to flee so James's interpretation fits the facts. It's always going to be a he said she said thing though: the titans logging in definitely were blackscreening but I think if there were enough willing to log in PL thought they could turn the tide they'd have risked it. I think the correct answer is there were some, they were blackscreening, but there were not enough to turn the tide because people didn't want to lose their titan so PL told the small group willing to log in not to bother.
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problem there is you only waited one hr to get out of tunnel you should have waited 6 that's how long it took me
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On the topic of the CFC civil war, never forget :FA SHOP FIRST
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"Ceding the system, the trapped assets (lol) and the commited Supers"yep, you found it, the :smug: behind my post. They did know better, but had no alternative. They could have not fought at all, or they could have "Titanomachy". Props to them for actually fighting it, but you can't deny the effect of hubris on the B-R fight. For the first half they (and we) thought they might just pull it out of their ass and win.edit: just like the hubris of CFC jumping in 700 dreads to HED-
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I feel like the James315 byline does serve as that framing. It's a brand, if you will.
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Why spend so much money on a video game spaceship if you aren't going to use it? E-cred? Not after what happened in B-R.What's the point of having a massive e-cock if you're impotent?
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You could've probably just said "no, no-one can" and saved me from reading through seven pages
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Well, they were no longer able to provide "themselves" to the theatre.The funny thing about PGL's (somewhat stupid-) comment about risk averse pussies not banding together to take on the CFC on it's own terms is that you have this underlying conflict of ideals. Those ideals are what I usually enjoy talking about because they are more closely related to the game itself.PL are sort of fighting CFC on that (second meta-) arena, over what direction game-design should take. From a perspective of PL: "becomming CFC" means losing that conflict and they value that conflict over the game higher than any current conflict in the game. PL's investment in any scenario against the CFC has never been to kill Goons, but to disrupt the ideal of "foreverwars", "getting friends" (in a situation of "finite numbers") and breaking down unified coalition gameplay to alliances, and alliance-level diplomacy, again. Similarily to how a corporate perspective look to do something similar with alliances and corporation-level diplomacy.The problem the "Grr Goon" faction has is that they want to engage the CFC on CFC's own terms but look around thesemlves for someone else to carry the torch; and in the case of PL throw their aspiration to PL, expecting them to lead the charge while they are ultimately not interested in leading large hordes of cheap ships into meaningless TiDi-battles. They are not interested in that gameplay, or most of their older players are not, at least.I've said it before: this whole "HBC" debacle was PL (and GSF) attempting to help TEST build a coalition to fight the CFC by teaching them how the game works (first and foremost: teaching them ships and tactics; training their fleets and FC's), and with TEST pulling out, PL got stuck with TEST's friends in their lap. Similarily with N3, PL's ambition (and you can see this if you screen through Grath's posts on the topic) is to help out their ideological friends in NCdot, and most complaints about buses is most likely the result of whatever allies NCdot forged clinging to PL as a result. NCdot, unlike PL, are moderately interested in a great war or leading a coalition. However they most likely envision that as one coalition among a handful, and not being the inevitable second side of two super-coalitions.Simply because you are strong, you can't be expected to fight other peoples' wars for them :).
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A lot of words to validate the position that the CFC is, and has been the most powerful nullsec bloc for almost a year now, and they are very capable of strangling any new contenders which emerge.Certainly the Goons have done a fantastic job of smashing anyone who could challenge them today. There is no one in nullsec who could stop them if they tried to conquer the whole kit and kaboodle.It's ok to say the Goons have won Eve. Maybe they will civilize nullsec. Maybe they will change how life in nullsec is played out. Maybe it's a great peace.
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Hehe, good point :).(But perhaps not applicable to all potential readers?)
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Agreed :).
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You know... Over-all I'm fairly new to EVE relatively. But one thing I have noticed is this... The CFC must be stopped. And, at one point I was a member of one of the CFC Alliances. Now, here's the problem... I left the Corp/Alliance I was a part of. So, I haven't been a member of the CFC in any regard for quite some time. However, I can't seem to join any other group of 0.0 dwellers since they all assume I'm a GewnSpai... and I honestly have no desire to move back into the CFC. So, because of this, which is directly caused by the level of judgement within EVE as a whole, I am currently rotting away, living in High-sec... I hear rumors of plans to overthrow the CFC, but honestly I doubt we will see it happen. Not as long as everyone is sooo suspicious of any player who was ever a member of the CFC. ok.... Rant over. Let the flaming begin.
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No flaming needed, I think you said it pretty well.It's not so much you being branded as a "spai" by all other groups in EVE, as much as it is a result of the game you want to get (back-) into only really having two-three sides. So, Nulli might not take you on account of "Grr Goon" and you might not speak russian. That leaves you with very few options. All other groups that would take you operate in other small sandboxes of the game that you might never have heard of provided your background and you'd need to immerse yourself in that gameplay first, before you can see what options you have. Additionally, those other sandboxes are plagued by similar-, related- or other issues of their own (you can join FW but it will have it's own set of CFC's and PL's; and it's not a richer pool of gameplay - most smaller sandboxes have less diversity).It's funny isn't it, since you experience the same issues as a new player, as I do as an older player where no option to play is better than the sov-game and none of them are appealing enough to make you content with the content. I could play in WH, but I know I would get bored quicker (it's just NPC-null with shittier mechanics). I could join FW but I know I would get bored quicker, because it's sov-wars in Lowsec. I could do non-FW Lowsec but it's even more meager and dry of targets than FW itself. I could do NPC-null but I will always know that I used to be able to do all of them at once, once.Sadly, no option is as good anymore and the thing is that it's the same for everyone regardless of what adaption you've made. Long term you will have less fun. People praise the mechanics of WH but the successful groups are strangled for content and see it's limitations. The same goes for FW with plenty of successful groups moving out of it. NPC-null are both not as visible and not as flexible as they used to be (pocket-space like Fountain core and Venal is more quiet, while fringe-space like Syndicate and Curse is less mobile).At the end of it all, the sandbox needs interaction with people who are not like yourself. It's built upon that notion, and achieving that is based on balancing all differences to a tolerable level and not to create a different game for each type of player.
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I can type "Go fuck yourself" 70,000 times. Does that mean I win?
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Yea, link the thread where everybody was wrong about the numbers because nobody knew the Russians were jumping out as evidence. I wonder if I were to look in there would I find a Weaselior post that had incorrect numbers in it.....
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To become the new BoB
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If you think us doing just about everything in that war for 90 days solid is us being fair weather friends than I'm not sure theres anything i can say to you that would change your already jaded mind.
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While it appears, based on a few corrections made in the comments below, that there are a few corrections needed this was a fantastic history lesson as well as a great lesson in null politics/propaganda. Read all 7 pages. Would read 7 more.
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I understand just fine. You don't need to be a genius to know that until it's time to retreat you need to keep pulling in reinforcements til the other guy retreats that's how you win a battle. unless grath meant that after the full retreat was sounded everyone was told to stop trying he's either an lier or a bad commander. No need to be rude arrendis
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See you in a few months/years when you'll have the choice between highsec and joining GSF as a member corp.
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As an outsider who has never played Eve for longer than a few weeks, I actually read the whole article. And I must say, it's a good read. I can agree with the conclusion that "the Last War" is not over but for whole different reasons actually .I simply don't think CCP will ever allow this game to be "over". At least I wouldn't as a developer. So I wouldn't be surprised that well before Star Citizen comes out, CCP has tweaked Eve's mechanics in such a way that it's all-out coalition warfare again. Wasn't CCP's tweaking of the economic mechanics one of the reasons CFC invaded TEST's territory? Who's says they won't do it again?
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Same
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I warped in to watch the fight for a couple hours when I first heard about it. I'm not trying to argue with you but but I'm pretty sure at least some of the fleet was putting titans as primarys for a while. I saw a lot more than doomsdays hit the enemies titans.
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You must be on acid.
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He probably gets paid what all the writers of TMC does. You know, using your brain is allowed.
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Probably the best post I've ever read on any EVE related news site or forum. I've played the game for three years and this post provided more historical insight into EVE politics than I thought I knew. Well done.
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Relax, there will be more space to conquer soon.
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The first non-shit james 315 article. Well done.
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It's only cause once you have a supercap there's not much to do. You can't dock it and fly a different ship and it's usually dangerous to use it to do anything with it because someone might try to hunt you. The trick is to get a supercap cancel your subscription then wait until it's needed then you resubscribe and launch it into battle. Saves a couple bucks on sub fees and plex.
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Hey there little apostrophe, what are you doing there?
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Great Article, I read the whole thing. I love James315's ability to lay everything out clearly, and the amount of information he somehow knows is incredible. I do admit, though, some days I dream of going to that area of highsec he claims he controls and breaking all the rules in his Code of Conduct just for the hell of it.
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Shrike corpse for sale from B-R. Serious inquiries only.
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Well, thank you for seeing my POV so clearly.... What you posted is actually EXACTLY what I've been feeling. I guess I just lacked the ability to put it as clearly. It just seems that finding a better place will be difficult if not impossible. And I really didn't like the way the CFC operated. I have my reasons, but won't get into name-calling and such here. I guess the summary is just that the CFC didn't "win" EVE, but they've made it so it's far less enjoyable to people such as myself. I must say though... It's funny to me. The things that I find interesting and intriguing about EVE Online are the very things that are making it difficult for me to find a new home. I'm sure I'll figure something out eventually, but for now, it feels...... Off.
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You know, it's kind of funny how nullsec is apparently more fun to read about than it is to play.
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BoB pls come back and save us from the goons.
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:tinfoilhat:
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It's kind of funny that people talk about stuff they have no clue about because they don't do it, they just read about it.
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You bad post om the goon forums too, what the fuck are you trying to say and why did it take so many paragraphs to say it?
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Fact checking would be a good thing to do when talking about a group.Hint: Kugutsumen didn't create Pandemic Legion.
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A very well-written article, as I've come to expect from James. The narrative is very entertaining, even though it appears that certain things were alerted to make a more enthralling story. I do agree with the overall point though. I don't think human nature will allow a blue donut to exist for long.
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It's something you come to expect from him - he makes great points and is an excellent writer, but it's best not to assume that all the details are accurate. Still makes for some very entertaining reads, though :)
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No, but neither does simply stating the opposing argument without any explanation, reasons, or evidence. If you disagree with the article, fine. Fantastic even. But tell us why. Give us a good reason to believe you.
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How soon after downtime did you first hear about it? By about 4hrs after DT, they'd already stopped shooting dreads.
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I'm happy to leave it to any reader of the thread to determine if PL was actually unable to count the titans they had and it was an honest mistake or not.
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And I'm pretty sure the implications are that the attempt to extract and tacit (or potentially explicit, since I don't have access to their internal comms) admission of 'we don't got this' came along with the order to stop trying to reinforce. It was the USTZ that was told to stop trying to get in, that places it in the last 12 hrs of the fight, which is about when PL/N3's assets began to try to withdraw.
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Maybe, just maybe noone wants you in pvp nullsec alliances is because all you do is carebear in hisec. Why dont you join a nullsec renting corp first... and proove yourself.The brand card is just made up... or you didnt try enough.Are you sure, you were turned down because of your corp history or YOUR killboard history?Think about it.ps: Not saying noncfc nullsec corp recruiters cant be dicks tho :)
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Though the article was more entertaining than experiencing EvE on a daily basis. If only it could have been written 8 years ago I might have started a family or something.
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Who's going to write the screenplay?
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RedSwarm Federation was Red alliance Goonswarm AND TCF. I know everyone forgets about the French but they did do something.
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"When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer."with nobody to fight goons like all empires will rot from within till it collapses under its own decadence and arrogance then eve will rebalance itself but for the next 2 years witness eve stagnate and watch the mass unsubs and migrations to other MMO's.
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Good article, enjoyed the read. Whether or not the CFC will fall apart remains to be seen.What I can see though is that the CFC has a very strong foundation. It will take more then a small push to implode. The reasons for this are strong centralized leadership and the fact that none of the other alliances are in a position to challenge the Goons for leadership.I mean by this that unlike previously formed coalitions or others like N3/PL the CFC does not consist of equally strong partners who have to come to an agreement in order to proceed. It is clear who holds dominion. With no compromises to be made there is no strong descending voice to drive separation within the CFC.It could well take a whole lot longer then this article suggests to break CFC supremacy in Null. Time will tell.
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I think it much more likely that CFC will not hold much of the space that they helped conquer. To think that CFC does not see this as a possibility is rediculous. They know that they can't eliminate their enemies or this is exactly what will happen. We all know that PL, RUS, and N3 are all very much still there and as hard as the CFC hits they have not annihilated anyone. RUS will take their new space and N3 will be back with or without PL. Goons will go back to their half and we will all wait and see what little bushfire war draws out the rest of the galaxy in a few months.
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How would progod or vince take this comment, might be the more pertinent question.
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Null represents a small minority of EVE subs. If whole coalitions unsub, others will take their place and write new history. As we write this, a whole new generation of players is ready and anxious to get their turn with the big toys. I for one don't fear the blue donut. As old things die, null will be replenished and new alliances shall rise, that is the way of all things.
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I AM HOISTING THE FLAG HIGH FOR PEOPLE WHO COULD NOT BE ARSED TO READ THIS
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So how do you explain Serenity...?
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.//
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MAYBE JUST MAYBE BECAUSE PL. RISKS MORE THAN ANY OF THERE ALLIES AT ANY ONE TIME
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Was you even playing then? or did you read about it like 90% of the people that bang on about it.And when did goons kill BoB? I thought it was a disgruntled director that closed the alliance, I didn't realise you actually beat them into submission, please correct me if i am wrong :)
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So EVE is dead until cap teiricide?
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N3 and friends did it to themselves. When they kill you, they start talking so much shit on how you suck(eventhough they drop caps on hurricanes). Them & PL drop Supercaps on people, who in turn want revenge and join someone with a fighting chance to get back at them.I was in ROGUE and then joined the CFC. I chosed them due to the fact that CFC actually gives noobs like me a chance to fight. N3/PL continue to degrade pilots because they think their shit don't stink with thier 100m skill point characters. I for one, is glad they got their shit pushed in and now they want to cry about it. With that superiority attitude, you're not bound to have a lot of friends.
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Tier 3 battle cruisers have battleship weapons. Why not make battleships with capital weapons? Then you have a viable way to combat capital ships with subcaps.
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Tsk. Such threats, on a public site.
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That's actually a fairly standard line of TESTaganda from before Fountain, actually - that the CFC was only recruiting small alliances because Mittens feared another TEST.
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For the longest time there was a derelict Tau Ceti TCU in Deklein, I thought it was pretty cool.
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That would be different from the roaming gangs that already roll through Deklein, culling the incompetent?
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Shhhhh don't reveal the Secret Page!
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There is possibly an argument to be made actually that nobody wins a battle like BR in the same way that "nobody wins a nuclear war". N3/PL took a horrendous demoralizing beating, but we lost a shit load of titans too and thats *gotta* hurt. In fact I'd even say that if it wasnt for how comprehensively N3/PL where pummelled we'd have been in a pretty vunerable position straight after.We nuked Moscow, Saint petersberg,and Novosibirsk , they just nuked Washington. We won! (No more washington)Fortunately, its just a game. Death to all supercapsedit: I say "we" as if I still play this game. Eh... one of these days I'll resub.
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Goons are our own worst enemies. Wait and see.
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One, Two - Elo's coming for you....three, four - Vince doesn't like you any more....five, six, gonna pull some trix...don't be scared dude....it will be quick
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Oooohhh yep. In the absence of interesting drama, we'll create it. We just cant fucking help ourselves.
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Mittani and Molle are both collossal dicks. But Mittanni admits it, and that makes him a better man than most of us douchebags who sit on forums trying to pummell each other with posts because its better than paying attention to our soul sucking shitty day jobs.
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tau ceti was eventually absorbed by goonswarm. also, don't talk about frenchies. you'll jinx it and they'll appear with a flood of arrogance and bad body odor
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when were minmatar allowed to modify amarr ships?
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"The fench did something" do you mean they ate cheese and surrendered?
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He's right you know...
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As a long-time repeat noob (I first started unsubscribing in 2006(?), this is my nth "main") who's never been much involved with alliances or null politics, but one who has now followed several Blue Donut Sagas via blogs, and is bigheaded enough to think he knows what he's talking about anyway, I say this:The problem isn't WHICH coalition is evilbad and grr ruining the game; it's that ANY coalition could conquer 0.0 - or even a substantial fraction of it. Even a tenth of the galaxy seems too much, to me. To their credit or otherwise, they end up hogging all the sand in the sandbox.I would -like- to be able to join or form a large corp or small alliance and hope to -some day- conquer and defend just one crappy backwater system, without having to negotiate, rent, sell out or outright join a coalition. I would like to have to take it from, and defend it against, a finite pool of opponents. Or even just aspire to that, and fail! As it stands, I can't even dream of it! I know I'm not the only one who thinks that's broken.Many ways to address it, I don't claim to know what's best - but nerfing travel times (force projection) seems promising, to me. Galaxies ought to seem big!Or perhaps limit alliances to holding only so-many sov systems, such that all alliances together can never conquer too big a fraction of the (BIG!) galaxy.Better ideas would be even better.
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As every great nation or empire in EVE, they fall when there is no more pew pew. That day will come soon enough.
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could the CFC have achieved this with out the extra RusRus numbers ? I mean .. would they have had the balls to field just their supercap fleet with out the added Rus numbers ?
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You made a mistake "N3 leader" .Clearly N3 has no leader. When BRAVE (who'll fight anyone) showed up to fight "The Evil Forces" of Goonswarm at the Hell Camp all N3 did was ship spin. At least goons gave GFs.As for N3, they have as little as possible vested interest in their own corp than they do all of EVE. Make no mistake it will be N3 who leaves to Star Citizen, not the Goons. I don't even like Goonswarm, but at least they promote, play, and make EVE interesting. At least they have a stake in the game. At least they give GFs!On aside, The guy who has the most kills in EVE is in N3, what did he do? He just sat on Barle undock killing newbs while his alliance floundered. Too bad I bet N3 could have used all those Archons he uses to rep his Proteus.7o
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"but the CFC most certainly did not order sub-capitals to leave B-R."I was there, the entire fleet I was in was ordered to leave. My celestis had to go elsewhere.
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Great article, and some things that most people did not know finally made public.
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"The reputation of PL's fleet commanders took a major hit." I'm in the CFC and if anything I respect the PL FC's more for staying as long as they did, they great attitude (the majority) of them have had about the outcome of the battle, and the excellent stream they provided even when they were losing.
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That's the rule of the game man, at the moment. It's like getting a few streets from the mafia and run them privately - not gonna happen.Not because the mafia needs that small portion of the business for itself. But any competition that is left alone can soon became a threat. Even if its just "we should not look weak, its our territory , either they join us or we destroy them" mentality.Now if sov bills would flare up tomorrow and gets lets say 10x or even 100x , maybe then alliances would conquer just what is needed to function and let others settle somewhere. But then again - small corps would have trouble paying those sov bills too. Maybe the only way is to get to wormholes - where a single system is a home of a single alliance (usually). I can't give an easy answer to "can we make that the big guys keep less than 100% of a region?".
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everybody knows that james 315 is mittens and Dan Browns' love baby
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Were you already in-system? The domi fleet Laz started off with was there the whole time.
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Alliances already have a de facto limit on their size - they have to pay for the sov upkeep. So if the space isn't being used, then it's a drag on the alliance's funds.But at the same time, a large corp or small alliance can conquer a crappy backwater - the problem is defending it, and that problem isn't one of game mechanics at all. It's a problem that no game mechanic can ever hope to completely fix.That problem is that human beings tend to continually group themselves into bigger and bigger gangs so they can beat up their neighbors.Nerfing force projection would only limit the smaller alliances more than the large coalitions. Just doing it as a basic matter of math, the guy with the larger income stream is going to have more titans. The guy with more pilots is going to have more chance of any given pilot being in a titan. So the ones who can't project force are going to be the little guys. For the big guys, it might mean an extra midpoint or two, but that's it. And setting up an extra tower in order to run another midpoint isn't a massive issue. Annoying, yes, but that's about it.
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Maybe book God Emperor of Dune Leto II?
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a)'Dissenting', not 'descending'.b)Your position seems to imply that the other alliances would want to challenge CONDI as the organizational backbone of the CFC. Why? There's a massive amount of work and infrastructure that goes into that, and really, I can't see anyone else wanting to take on the extra effort just to say 'Yay! I'm in charge in a space ship game!' I mean, let's face it, the major wars we've been in, we've won. Clearly, what we've got is working. Why would anyone want to do more work to achieve (at best) the same results we're already getting?To quote Bill Cosby: "I'm not the boss, but I've seen the boss's job... and I don't want it."
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Exactly.
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Except when the intention is to actually analyze what happened, so you can accurately assess the current state of affairs. Narrative's great, but lying to yourself only bakes in mistakes.
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When will we see capital movement restrictions! So that it would take time from a super capital fleet to move from one region to another (several days)... This might make movement of caps more tactical. Smaller entities could strike behind enemy lines.... I could also be wrong though heh
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I agree, that's the way it is, but not how it must be. I don't have a better idea necessarily, but it seems like it could and should be better. Just ideas, but: too many stars to conquer them all. The big guys get the best ones, grr, and get richer, but the rest of us get to play with plenty of sand too - and risk losing it to a bigger alliance, fine, but not certainly to a gigantic, inaccessible power bloc due to politics you never heard of, or especially just because the big boys won't let anyone in.Again, I'm not laying out any solutions cuz i don't know enough to have any. Just impressions if a long time noob.As for nerfing travel & force proj, i specifically meant for big boats. If it was logistically difficult to move a slow fleet, then sending your strength to one place would weaken you in others, as in all earthly warfare. It might make for more border wars, tighter borders, and less capacity to control "too much" sov. As has been suggested, longer drives would make big operations a bigger deal, and might discourage blob sizes (and thus tidi), as alliances would have to depend more on local assets. So, more fights, more smaller sov changes, less tidi, less absolute need (and benefit) of huge coalitions, and another thing i just forgot, cuz if BoB comes back and joins PLN3RUSCFC and puts its pilots in one regional battle, they'd be unable to defend the rest and everyone would know it.
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Actually an interesting read for once.
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And, that was after another player; the old NC (With Morsus Mihi and Razor in the lead) took the brunt of Molles last failcampaign (Max Damage), gave Deklein to TCF (which failcascaded all by themselves), and then gave Deklein to goons (who had trouble in the South and needed refuge for a while). The NC also failed bigtime eventually but they need some credit too. They were a large part of kicking bob/kenzoku/it out of delve and finishing them off permanently together with goons, pl and others.
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No, because Gevlon, bless him, every once in awhile, says something vaguely competent.
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The russians thing was because there was a misunderstanding about how many titans we had killed. We (as well as everybody else) thought the number was much much higher than it actually was, and thats what I originally thought weaselior was talking about (i hadn't clicked the thread- most kugu threads are fairly toxic and best if only viewed once).
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I heard you got a new nyx, feel free to bring it back around
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I can verify that on the CFC-side, until CCP came out and said '16', we were pretty sure blue losses were in the 20-25 range, yeah.
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Doubtful, but you can feel free to give it a shot.
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Longer drives will not discourage blob sizes. A year ago for Asakai, we sent 4 full fleets of subcaps screaming 2/3 of the way across New Eden to try to save Boat's titan. As for logistically difficult to move a slow fleet - that's precisely what I'm talking about. There is nothing you can do to increase the difficulty of doing something that will not allow a Coalition of 37,000 people to be more likely to have the manpower and materiel resources needed than an Alliance of 600 or even 6,000 would be. You only make the little guy less competitive.Make it harder/more annoying to drive a fleet of battleship 30 gates, and the little guy will have trouble doing it when he absolutely has to. When the big guy absolutely has to do it, he won't even bother driving those battleships - he'll drive a fast covops or recon cruiser, and light a cyno for the fleet to be bridged in by a friendly titan. If it's more than one jump's range, arrangements will get made to drop that fleet in as close as humanly possible. And the big guy is more likely to have the titan(s) available when it's needed.As for BoB coming back... you mean like SirMolle/Shrike? I believe he and many other BoB folks are in N3 right now. As others have said: the labels change, but the song remains the same.
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good quote and so true. titles are an illusion, true power is invisible. fuck being the 'boss'
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Enjoyed the read. Thanks James.
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That's a great article, substantial and informative. Read it while watching the olympic closing ceremony. Enjoyed both. Ty man!
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I was joking about BoB, just saying, whichever big coalition is winning eve once and for all, again.I agree, the way things are, I'm sure you're right. But if as i said it was difficult to move halfway across the map and back, due to some new and otherwise balanced and wonderful game mechanic, then it would not be the same; with, i think, beneficial effects on blobbing and sov exchanges. You might find several smaller but still important battles, and numerous constellation-level attack / defense strategies. (Instead of the endless cold wars punctuated by huge, dull, kinda arbitrary battles. An example might be limiting titans to one jump a day, and maybe a ship or character can only use 1-2 Titan bridges a day.I haven't even given that thought any thought, so it's not worth criticizing as a serious suggestion, but it's the -type- of (sort of small...) change that might result in the kind of galaxy more people would want to play in, and where afk-blobbing and waiting for tidi wasn't what the cool kids were doing anymore.
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The idea is, the 37000 member coalition is stronger, but can't bring 37000 people to every battle. A local group is already local and can field all it's available pilots, but a faraway power should have to actually travel, and proportionately weaken its frontiers. As it stands, as you say, 1000 ppl from one coalition can scream completely across the map to influence any and every fight, and then get straight back in no time if they're needed anywhere else, and then back and forth again. Losing that sort of mobility would not hurt the little guys! It might save them.A smallish alliance -should- be able to go it on their own, in a small corner, away from the strategic objectives, without having to join any vast coalition, and have to play to their vast ambitions, or the game is screwy.
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This is the best article I have ever read dealing with nullsec politics. To the point, no beating around the bush and definitely not one-sided. A long but very worthy read, thank you.
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I'm in NC and Progod is a complete tool, never go on his fleets as my neighbours dont like to hear his voice as all he does is scream and lose fleets and alot of people in NC feel the same.
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Dotbros coaltion to reform and attack the North and SS should continue their fight with Fountain Core guts down South. Fountain war proved that moving their cap cache up to defend assets was a nuisance and eventually CFC made a deal. Which if BL accepted and 401k declined. So lets see what's going to happen.
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Don't forget, sometimes they also drink wine and seduce women.
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Tada.
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even the women do that
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heh. (a) was simply informative, and not intending as any kind of insult.As for (b) - it's just that I think someone would have to want to be in charge before the issue of 'can I take over?' even becomes a consideration.
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brought to you by the people from MinorHumping.com where uglies are bumped with hardeners on.
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A thing members of dead, shit alliances say to feel better about the stations they can't ever dock in again.
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Weird how all of our super reinforcements (especially BL's titans that jumped in 5-6 hours before DT) all loaded just fine. Nah I'm sure it wasn't a case of PL being cowards when they could actually be killed.Anyway enjoy the drone regions lol
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Maybe nobody wants to put their neck out on the line to help shitheads like TEST that decided to bite the hand that gave them all their space.
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really well written. congrats on quality content.
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yeah I lived with them. I was a part of OWN alliance when they lived with TCF. I am so glad I left OWN lol.
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this is very well written, honestly surprised to see a really fair and correct write-up, still reading on page 4 atm. Really refreshing to see a cool easy to read nullsec write-up like this. very nice work mister james315
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He was actually the executor.
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I think its like a TV diner, thaw her out, pop in the microwave for a few minutes, and she is ready to go!
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/slowclap
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Yea I wonder why it was so easy to jump in at hour 16 of a 22 hour fight, its almost like, you know, a lot of people had cleared the system or something.The last 5 hours was hand holding the dead (11pm my time onward), long after we'd called off people jumping in.
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is there any point to playing the game now goons control mostly every thing?,im off to eldar scrolls online when that comes out and i would think that a great many other players will leave too.but with all great empires even goons will crumble
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if only elderscrolls wasnt so bad lol
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Gang of Goons
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Can you point to me where welping fleet after fleet of Proteuses into you guys outnumbered four-to-one solid from November through January is risk aversion?Hey I love me a little rough handling, and PGL does what he can to draw criticism like a *magnet*, but don't be calling the guy who jumped into your dominix swarms week after week before the war turned around mid-January "risk averse."
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Like Methylated Spirit said -- TLDR of the comments? Some think "Yes."
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Hi Friend, I was there for both Delve I (which we lost) and 2, (which we won!)I can tell you that GS and all the other old grudges BOB had built up over the years that had come down to Delve to rub Shrikes face in poop, did in fact kill BOB.
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The CFC possibly crumbling under its own weight, as it did when Redswarm fell apart and again when TEST split off, is literally the entire point of the article. Jesus. You tl;dr, then write your own tl;dr wondering about shit that would have been clear had you read the fucking article. Please die in a fire.
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The thing about Nazis and the thing about loving everybody make this article one of my top five of all time.A little cream with your sarcasm, sir?
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Answered in the article, *and* in the write up of B-R, you slavering mongoloid
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I don't get it....
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Is it me ....or does this website, named and owned by the leader of goons, push heavily the idea that goons do not own the game....
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True to form, they still haven't used deodorant. Ok enough stereotyping the french for one day.
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When numbers matter, the best organized group wins. The Goons organization can't be beat at this point in Eve history. Either they(and the CFC) will have to loose significant amount of players or someone is going to have to beat their meta. I would bet Goon "braindrain" and loss of players will have to happen before anyone can seriously challenge them.
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nullsec was shit anyway.
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Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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"and all the other old grudges BOB had built up over the years"Case put to rest.
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Designing for emergence is hard, and frequently hampered by "unintended consequences" that players will most definitely exploit. There are things that can be designed to guide player decisions (like ship stats) and there are things that simply can't (like people's tendency to go for safety in numbers and economies of scale).
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The Mittani gave out the guy's IN GAME name. There's a pretty big difference in that one small detail.
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In my defense, Poe's Law.
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The real question is reverse: Would Stainwagonrusrus be sitting through their second year of zilch sov without the CFC?
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Real talk: most kugu threads are best if viewed never.
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It's kinda funny how people get defensive when someone points out a fact that is true for most eve players.
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You can go and play your reskinned guild wars2 to your hearts content and EvE will still be here, waiting for you to return.
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Because Grath had the stones to be the first one to say it. It doesn't matter if N3's leadership knew they'd need to pull back and regroup, Grath gets pilloried for being the first one to own up to that fact, and for taking the deal that let him a)do what he needed to do anyway, and b)recover assets for his corp, alliance, and pilots.
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Also, Mittens was pretty damn shitfaced.
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Eve needs more targets that can be fastly disabled by few dozen ships when unnoposed. And that disabling harms the space holer. And The damm battleships need a LARGE buff to be a coutner against supercapitals.
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the truth is, after the B0TLRD agreement there is no reason for PL to not withdraw, you have your sheeps save + your renter space grew up. but a defensive war didn't end when you as ally want it, it ends when the attacker is defeated or stopped attacks. but yeah again, you have your agreement.maybe some day the last "elite" player from N3 will understand what happend here and why PL has to secure it's income at all costs. without the renter income PL can't operate anymore. you couldn't even pay the fuel bills for move ops, you couldn't pay the office costs in every key system, you couldn't replace your losses. your members had to work again for their "income" and "fun".i don't think PL would last very long under this conditions but yeah, as long as you find "allies" who defend your renter income instead of kick you in the nuts it will work very well for you. PL would loose a sov war against N§ if they would be motivated enough. you can't defend space with supers and we know how motivated PL is against subcap fleets even if there are only some shitty bombers grinding your sov.
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Guess that's why most people who are interested in 0.0 space and politics live in 0.0 instead of just reading about it? THere's a difference between being defensive and saying the guy has no clue what he's talking about when he never tried to play that way.0.0 can be annoying and it's not designed for everybody - but there's still ten thousands of players who love it with all it's good and bad sides. But reading about something will never be able to substitute actual experience. Be careful, you could have fun down here.
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No CFC hasn't won EVE. I'm having a blast shooting CFC. Good times ahead.CFC know how BL roll. So this campaign will be interesting. With Tri already playing up Nirth and a few others heading North gfs to be had. We all win at EVE.
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Blah blah blah. Half you idiots commenting have only played eve for a couple of years and think you're facts on the death off eve now about, "eve it's losing pvp'ers at a fast rate now". Really matters? I've played eve for 10 years and crap like this happened with bob before. The thing about eve is, it will always recover. If you leave now, in a year some other pilot will be just like you thinking he is the last bad ass null sec pvp guy... well just like many of the big names in pvp and fcs from 4-6 years ago... You will be forgotten and no one will give a shit about what is happening in eve right now.You guys make such a big deal of these events as if they are game enders, this has happened before, masses it's space and money lost. Blah blah. At the end of the day it's a game and new people replace the old people and this will happen all over again, get over it.
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Of course this is simply a propaganda screed as usual. The target audience in this case is CCP!!We haven't really won nullsec, Please CCP don't do anything to nerf power projection or blobs.
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why dont people just do a rebel/black ops type things to the cfc? TRI. i think pl and n3 should leave sov and deploy north
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incredible history lessons, thank you
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Making sub caps viable, improving the infrastructure so more ships could fit in a system, and fixing factional warfare so sub caps/ new players could feel useful are some good ideas. Maybe the "cfc must die" banner will start a new era of conflict, I would re-sub for that.
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I like this article because it reminded me of Shadoos abortion of an idea for "war games", and his rather transparent "b b but sov grinds wah" excuse for not doing anything at that time.You either live long enough to become a pussy or you commit suicide in a desperate attempt to do something, anything, on your own like montolio and TEST
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Shadowwolf (FA) is from the southeast, so I'd have to agree.
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Goonswarm love novel or wall of smug.I can't really tell, but I did read at least 2 paragraphs and spot it was 7 pages long to form this graphic analysis of the post.Roll on Edward 316
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I disagree, CFC, is not likely to fall from without, however I believe the potential for the CFC to fall from within will only increase. Coalitions usually are short term arrangements to a specific goal common to all involved. In short, the CFC can't simultaneously meet the goals of all member groups at all times.
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Oh I call BS. I remember many goons saying the same thing about BoB... Its always the same, empires rise.. and fall.Sorry, the dynamic nature of Eve is the waves of players. Its a new game every year or so. In short, this too shall pass.

INTRODUCTION

The "Halloween War" took a sharp turn when CFC/RUS triumphed over N3PL in the great titan clash of B-R. The battle was quickly followed by evacuations and retreats by N3PL forces. This led many EVE players to ponder the question of whether anyone can pose a threat to the CFC anymore. Some observers suggest that the CFC's supremacy in nullsec will continue indefinitely, if not permanently.

The theory is that the only counterweight to the CFC's vast population was the formerly-great N3PL supercapital fleet. Then, in B-R, the CFC proved itself capable of fielding (along with RUS) an even bigger supercap fleet. N3PL's prized supercaps were shattered, leaving them with no way to stop the CFC.

That's the theory, anyway. And judging by the chatter on EVE-related blogs and forums, it has a lot of proponents. In a post entitled "The Last War", Jester's Trek wrote:

"But this war is over. And get ready to yell at me: I hope you enjoyed it because it's probably the last that EVE is gonna see for a long while. Additionally, it's a good bet that B-R5RB is not only the costliest battle EVE Online has ever seen, it's the costliest battle EVE Online will ever see... [I]t also feels to me like a loss of the large number of CFC pilots needed to make the fall of the CFC happen (if thousands of them decided to switch to Star Citizen, say) would also be an existential threat to EVE Online itself... So to CCP, I suggest you guys make hay while the sun shines. B-R5RB is a fantastic marketing opportunity! But it's never going to come again."

N3 leader progodlegend seemed to agree. In a comment replying to the Jester's Trek post, progodlegend wrote a bitter epitaph for the anti-Goon forces in EVE:

"You know what I find amusing? So many people seem concerned about goons becoming the dominant force in EVE, yet so few of you were ever willing to line up against them and fight them. The reason goons are so dominant is because EVE is full of risk averse pussies, that's the beginning and the end of it. You have no one to blame but yourselves."

Countless other writers remarked along the same lines. If they're right, then it's game over for nullsec, and the great story of EVE has reached its conclusion. As for me, I strongly disagree with their assessment. In this article, I'll explain why.

THE IMPACT OF B-R

The battle of B-R did have serious consequences. In the short-term, the loss of trillions of isk forced PL to abandon its allies and withdraw from the war. Evacuations by N3 alliances followed. B-R proved that no alliance or coalition in EVE is capable of shrugging off the loss of a supercap fleet. Supercaps are absurdly expensive. If you lose a supercap fleet, you're pretty much out of the war. This was one of the criticisms I made in my earlier editorial on supercaps. Despite all the bluff and bluster about replacing supercaps (which continued even after the battle was over), this criticism proved to be well-founded. A few days after B-R, PL leader Grath Telkin announced PL's retreat, explaining:

"That said, my corp, my fucking corp, took a hit of around 1.5 trillion isk. My alliance as a whole took a shot to the nuts somewhere in the neighborhood of 4.5 trillion isk. Those numbers are beyond staggering in nature and dwarf the amount of money more than half the alliances in EVE will ever see, much less recover from."

As a side note, other of criticisms of the current supercap mechanics were also supported by what happened at B-R. The battle was decided entirely by titans, since the only counter to a supercap fleet is an even bigger supercap fleet. Which is to say that supercaps don't have a counter--in spite of the CFC's endless quest to find one.

Meanwhile, sub-capital fleets, which counter neither capital nor supercap fleets, were confirmed to be deadweight. CFC/RUS actually ordered their sizable sub-cap fleets to leave the B-R system, as they contributed more lag than firepower. The sub-caps were directed to remain in other systems and intercept enemy reinforcements. Some argued that this was what sub-caps should always do. Personally, I doubt CCP intended for the vast majority of ship classes in EVE to be consigned to the role of station-camping in other systems while the caps and supercaps do the fighting.

The battle of B-R also had significant long-term effects. The reputation of PL's fleet commanders took a major hit. It's difficult to describe the kind of mystique and level of respect that PL's FCs enjoyed prior to B-R. One way of illustrating it is to point to the fear that CFC and PL have always had of each other. This mutual fear has resulted in numerous pacts and a persistent "frenemy" relationship. The difference is that PL has feared the CFC because the CFC outnumbers them by a ridiculous margin; the CFC has feared PL because of PL's FCs (and supercaps).

Prior to B-R, there was always a sense that if a major capital/supercap engagement occurred, the CFC was destined to lose because somehow PL's FCs would pull a rabbit out of a hat. This didn't happen in B-R. More importantly, it was discovered that N3PL's loss was due in large part to the mistakes made by PL's FCs (especially fleet commander Manfred Sideous) during the battle. N3PL was outnumbered, but they were also outclassed.

The image of PL's line members also suffered as a result of what happened during the battle. As the engagement in B-R unfolded, PL put its faith in its U.S. time zone (USTZ) titan pilots. Because PL had a strong advantage in that time zone--very late hours for CFC's RUS allies--it was hoped that sufficient reinforcements could jump in and turn the tide of the battle.

James 315 has a distinguished history of combat in nullsec, mostly fighting against the Band of Brothers alliance, which was a bad alliance. Recently he has moved to highsec, where he currently serves as Father of the New Order and Saviour of Highsec