Destroying The Shipyards

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Really good article and hit's the nail on the head.
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I really love this article. It's obvious POS's need be much more useful and much less of a tedium (not less effort just less tedious stuff for real) I think having production on every level in 0.0 save for maybe t2 production would be extremely beneficial to the life of 0.0. I myself (and probably like many others) have an alt corp in empire that does all my invention/production because it really does me no good to do it in null. I do believe that small gangs should be able to disrupt a POS in an annoying way not a significant way to provoke fights....Maybe a system upgrade like an ihub but for POS's that needs to be trained like skills in EVE to aid to the effectiveness of a pos....Maybe you could have this index gain SP that can be depleted to extent by small gangs....who knows...anyway...lots of good stuff
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Would be great, but the reality is all ship yards will be burned instantly by the bigger blocs. Why take that risk?
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If nullsec production is properly incentivized there is no need and no reason to nerf jump freighters, and plenty of reasons not to. I mean, unless you never want moon minerals to be sold in Jita again, just to name an example.
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I really liked this article, lots of good ideas here.
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I similar do well in t2 production only 4 jumps from jita w/ absolutely no risk. Woot for carebears...good thing I put that isk at risk in PVP. just another null player making a safe living where the isk is...hisec
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This is an interesting proposal, but it strikes me that it might have some unintended consequences. In particular, giving T2 manufacturing bonuses to 0.0 will have the effect of making it impossible to do T2 manufacturing anywhere *but* nullsec. The market will follow the path of lowest material cost. It's already essentially impossible to make a profit doing T2 manufacturing through invention for items that have extant T2 BPOs in the game. The proposed mechanic would expand this problem to anything bonused for manufacture in nullsec. It might very well "fix" 0.0 industry by destroying it everywhere else.Now perhaps this is to be desired. Certainly there seems to be a contingent of the new eden populace that would like to see that happen. However, consider that currently invention based industry is actually one of the few mechanics in the game that doesn't encourage blobbing. Indeed, the corp roles mechanics are such that it actually sorta discourages industrialists from banding together in large groups because it vastly increases the likelihood of in-corp theft. A small (1-5) group of players (or even a single player with lots of alts) can currently make a decent income with a bit of training and a modest (though non-trivial) amount of effort. Such incomes can, and do, support these players in small-gang pvp where alliance level ship replacement funds aren't available.However, forcing T2 manufacturing out into 0.0 POSes which will be expensive, juicy targets will end this. Currently invention POSes aren't worth the effort to attack, and so small industrial corps don't have to defend them. Manufacturing POSes are a different story because the assets must be put in space and risked (indeed this seems to be the part of the point of this proposal). However if they must be risked, they must be defended, and that means that you can't do industry in small groups, but *must* do it in massive alliance blobs. The only safe industry will be those blue to PL and the like. It will be like the tech bottleneck, except worse because now the large null blocks will have control of both the materials *and* the manufacturing.
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So you'd rather fight an inanimate object?The solution to crappy small gang warfare isn't "let's shoot structures instead".
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Sorry, I just assume that if an alliance can hold space they can build a refinery outpost central to their primary constructions areas. God knows its pretty damn easy to do. Refining shouldn't be the issue unless the matter is that you don't want to pay a refine tax or you are a low-skilled player with the inability to refine in nullsec at an appropriate level to avoid waste. But if we're talking about real industrialists doing real building here, and not just small-scale production by amateurs, that shouldn't be an issue either. Not looking to argue. I've just never found it all that difficult to build in 0.0 as long as the inputs were readily available.
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Excellent article, and I 100% agree. This is exactly what the CSM has been asking CCP to do with the new POS system
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The general point you make is correct, yes. There are far too many things in empire that are far too cheap to do and it limits the flexibility afforded to station owners in nullsec.That's a whole topic unto itself, however...
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yes
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It's perfectly possible to balance things such that it's worthwhile to build yourself in null, but not so much to build and then ship back out to Jita. Remember, if someone's doing Tech 2 production in null this way, they're either shipping raw materials out, or running a massive reactor farm. Either of those is an added expense.
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Great Article. I love the idea of large shipyards that can produce ships really fast but are very vulnerable to attacks, even to small raids that slow down/ halt production.
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Personally, I disagree, and I disagree from the standpoint of having done a 60 battleship a week production effort in null. That's a full jump freighter worth of compressed guns and other material, about ten freighters worth uncompressed, and let me tell you, it wasn't the compression techniques on the highsec end of things that caused "excessive hassle". If I could deliver those compressed minerals to a station (or POS as in this case), refine them, and then build them right there and not have to move, I'd still be doing it.
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This is amazing!I am trying to figure any downsides and I do not seem to find much here at all....I could see the HS players cry a bit to bonuses for T2 production in null maybe but that's about it.I don't build, like at all heh but I buy all the time and Null industry in it's current state is fundamentally broken, I believe this proposal of yours addresses the issue very well.I would love to see this happen!Someone nail this to CCPs door...
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CCP HIRE THIS MAN NOW!!!
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You fight the inanimate object to generate POS mails so that the owner knows it is being attacked, thus sends out a defensive fleet which then generates a fight.
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The issue with having no more bubbles is that CCP will have to put in place a system to safely park Super Caps. A better idea would to separate the two and make a whole new POS the can only be anchored in Null Sec like CSAA's that doesn't have a Bubble type shield for industry. This POS could be modular with the ability to add more modules for more use's. That way you can have a center tower and then build/add off the tower the pieces to eventually have a full assembly line from refining stages to the produced ship faster with less man hours involved. Risk can come in from having your BPO's having to be inside one of the builder modules and that Capital industrial ships and freighters would have to drop materials at the tower, also it would less room for guns or weapons pushing people to come and actively defend it. This also answers the "growing tower" Idea as you would have to build up the tower as the modules could be sized for different ships like they are now, but be able to build down to a size instead of "this is for Large ships and this is for Med ships only". In this system, the module setup that builds Carriers and dreads can also build battleships to rifters. Having it build more then one ship size makes it valuble during a war when front line people BS's now not Carriers. The tower could be an ORE faction tower (i think faction towers need to come back) so that you wouldn't have to worry about 4 different tower ideas, and it should also have high enough defense (shields,EHP) that its not some easy target to pick off. But the ehp should very with the investment into to it. The one that build Cap hulls should be much harder to kill next to the one that build cruiser hulls as the investment is that much greater. Oh well just a thought.
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It does address the problem that a small gang isn't a threat at all. "Just wait for them to go away" is currently an effective strategy against them.Picture this. Allow a small gang to hurt production times (think of it like shooting station services but instead of shutting off the service you impose a 50% penalty to it) Something that has a cost to repair either in time or materials. At that point a small man roam has the potential to be something that must be delt with instead of simply ignored. You have two choices. Deal with it now by shooting them (read: fights) or Deal with it later with a cost of delayed production and the tedium of repping things.
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To force entirely local production, you'd have to redistribute moon goo. Even if an alliance decided to build everything T2 locally, they still need to source some materials from other regions. Also, an alliance needs to be able to turn a profit, so moongoo and production would need to go back to the trade hubs. Nerfing the ability of logistics of jump freighters to jump across the high sec boundry would just add more tedium.
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Now we just need to make disruption of ratter/miners a viable and relevant activity rather than a minor inconvenience/idiot tax.
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Actually some of CCP's musings include a module for mooring supercaps at, so better than being able to park, you'd be able to dock!
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A nullsec worth fighting over? That is something I'd resub and crawl out of my wormhole for.
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I suppose, but it's a pretty fine line you're threading. Shipping costs aren't that high, and to some extent have to be incurred by lowsec and highsec industry as well. Similarly, someone's running the reactors regardless, so this is already factored into the production costs and the profit margins anyway. The one big added cost in nullsec will be the industry site itself and potential losses thereof. If there is sufficient incentive to build these expensive things out there for people to shoot at, then you're going to need a big profit margin, which will probably destroy the safer avenues. (If it doesn't then why would you risk working in null, just build in empire with alts like the current system). Once you've made the profits large enough to attract out to null, then you've balanced the system to large groups and blobbing wins. Providing *just* enough profit to balance null *and* empire is going to be a *very* difficult balancing act and probably not a stable one. This is EvE. Things get min-maxed very fast. Whatever the best way to do industry is will quickly become the only way to do industry. It's the nature of a free market economy,
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I guess that is presuming the most logical way of getting minerals out to the depths of nullsec is by shipping them in from empire. My point was nullsec should have vast quantities of minerals locally and miners employed to extract them. But I hear ya, if you don't live near a refinery then it can be a bitch. Not sure null is supposed to be easier, but it would be nice if there was a more distinct benefit to manufacturing out there. Something that made the arious hassles worth the time/effort.
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A docking setup for supers would be a major step in the right direction, as they wouldn't have to use safes in the middle of space. I think a big thing is they need to have the modules attach to each other instead of anchoring them in space. Maybe someday if EVE is still around we can see POS's take over for outposts.
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Well right now it IS the most logical way, because the minerals simply aren't available locally. That's a problem unto itself, but local supply won't fix it. At the end of the day, you need to make building with minerals (regardless of their source) in nullsec more attractive (meaning less of a hassle) than it is to jump in finished battleships via jump freighter, six at a time. If I'm having to freighter minerals from a station any further than a POS or another station in the same system, they've missed the mark.
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I think gangs should be able to do more then just disrupt ratters and miners. I mean a fleet of 40 guys isn't really enough to assault a space station (depending on ship etc) but it should be enough to do something.I don't think it should be a "turn up, spend 30seconds and you've destroyed their production for 3 days" kind of affair, more of a "They shoot the structure, defender gets warning, takes some time to grind it down, if they grind it down they get a reward and production is slowed by X% (maybe 5?)" so if you have 3 modules speeding up production, and you ignore the 50 man gang grinding those down one after each other you'll lose your bonuses.If the defender is made aware they can always form a small defence fleet and turn up. Fights for all.
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That's brilliant, I love the the concept of the station growing over time, almost like it would have its own skill queue. Brilliant and I hope these ideas are heavily examined by CCP
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The big catch would be how do you do this so that major alliances don't just continually become more powerful?
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The current moon distribution is fine as long as the most valuable material isn't a regional r32. Nobody was talking about moon redistribution back in the pre-Dominion days of dyspro and promethium. Restore the r64s to the top of the list where they should be anyway and the problem of regional disparities goes away.
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Bear in mind that POS /already/ have a bonus to production time. And as they say, Time is money.A 0.75% multiplier on time to make stuff is reasonably significant, when you deal with isk/hr as your main metric for production. It'd be possible to have a sov bonus on that, perhaps? Not 25%, but 5 or 10% would be significant enough, perhaps.Now, setting things up so you have global storage in each pos, rather than having to shuffle stuff between arrays in a POS, that does a fair amount to help.And as another thought, allow for the defences to be partially powered up, so they can come online (offlining production facilities temporarily) without user intervention, when they'd be needing to fire. Hardeners immediatly when an enemy arrives on grid, weapons and ecm a short time after. That incentivises people to fit for max production, while remaining able to defend it. possibly have a max percentage for the switchover.
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That's a "catch" regardless of how the game works, which means it's barely relevant.
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With a big modular thing, there should be all sorts of things that could be targeted. Expensive stuff, like construction bays, should get reinforcement timers while things like warp scrams shouldn't.
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Being an owner of one T2 BPO, I flat out say that your statement on profits is inaccurate. The one I have is ammo, and the daily Jita sales volume of that item is 25x what I could possibly build with my BPO. Sales throughout the empire mean that there would need to be about 50-70 of that particular BPO in existence to push invention to unprofitable levels. The Ishkur apparently is so low in profit that the owner of one of the BPOs sells max-run copies rather than makes the actual ships. The same with several of the T2 mining crystals. A T2 BPO takes longer to copy than it does to make a batch, so making copies off of a T2 BPO is a terrible waste of resources. For example, an Infiltrator 2 takes 33 minutes to build a single unit in comparison to 63 minutes to make a single-run copy. http://games.chruker.dk/eve_on...On other T2 items that I manufacture, for many, the profit margins are so small that transactions taxes consume what little exists. On some select ones, I make so much profit off invented blueprints (even at -4/-4), that I make 100% markup selling them to buy orders, even purchasing all the parts from sell orders. So, for those items, even buying high and selling low is profitable. For the ones that are not profitable (mining laser 2, T2 assault missiles), I don't make them except for personal (or maybe corporate) consumption. If you follow the T2 BPOs for sale on the forums, you will often see some that need about 100 years of 24/7/365 production to pay back the cost of the BPO. Some will lose money even if the BPO was free. The Infiltrator 2 BPO for sale on contracts in Jita will need to be in production for 18-19 years just to pay back the cost of purchasing the BPO (the Spodumain 2 mining crystal BPO is about the same).http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?b...In this game you *must* know your market. I don't claim to be an expert, and I know I make tons of mistakes - my goal is to make less mistakes than the other guy.
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The cost of taxes in production is a tiny rounding error in the cost of manufacturing. On ships, you are looking at manufacturing costs being less than 1% of the cost of minerals. To push manufacturing to nullsec via the tax route would mean that manufacturing costs in highsec need to rise at least 100-fold, and doing so would destroy industry in the game. Instead of purchasing ships, you would have to mine your own minerals and build your own ship from blueprints you paid for.
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+1 for growing stations.
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The refining issue is why there are so many Minmatar outposts - they have a refinery in the basic outpost. For all other racial outposts, a horrible refinery is a major upgrade, costing more than 20b in upgrades to get to the same level as the worst refineries in low/high sec.http://games.chruker.dk/eve_on...
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Simply solving the trit (and general mineral) supply problem in null will be sufficient to revitalize local shipbuilding. Look at the Drone Regions pre-Inferno for an example. Back when the GSF and Raiden were fighting it out over Tenal, IRC shipped Raiden several hundred Abaddons, all produced locally, because at the time the Drone Regions were awash in minerals that were in some cases below Jita prices.Changing POS mechanics alone won't do much. You can't build ships without minerals, especially trit. And trit has to be at near-Jita prices to make local shipbuilding competitive. Nerfing jump freighters or mineral compression alone won't help; it'll just raise local trit prices to the point where mining Veldspar is competitive with mining ABCs or running Sanctums/Forsaken Hubs, and will consequently price PvP in anything but cruisers and frigates out of existence.
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Availability of local mineral sources does not change the fact that dealing with the infrastructure itself is a needless kick in the balls. There is literally no good reason or explanation for why you have to have your refinery and factory separate (or pay billions of isk to have a half-assed combo of both in a heavily upgraded station, as the case may be) when combined facilities are available in virtually every station in empire.
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You might think about creating a type of pos that doesn't require fuel (like most subcaps) but then also doesn't have a stront bay so instead of the ability to be reinforced, it blows up without any time to defend it. Where the current outposts and pos could be likened to castles and forts of null, these new pos would be the farms of 0.0. (Trit farm / mining operation anyone?) Risk vs. reward. It'll be interesting to see what CCP does when they get around to the pos revamp.
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Shifting Manufacturing to null sec would not destroy industry. I imagine it would have to be done in stages over a few months though to limit disruption. That being said someone will always meet demand as long as there is isk in it.
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Very interesting points, very well thought out. Excellent article
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My indy alts all live in high-sec sad really considering if POS refining array could process compressed minerals I could be churning out any subcap hull or mod right at home.
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Along with that, you'd need to make POS's "liveable" (yes, this is more significant to the wormhole duders, than 0.0, but still should apply for supers and titans), meaning you have to get out of your spaceship when you dock into the hanger, although I would also make this a "required structure upgrade module" to the POS assembly, before you can even "dock" in the POS.The bonus to this is, your clone has to "be there" when you are "docked" NO JUMP CLONING OUT of the POS (sorry wormhole dudes, no jumpcloning out of your wormholes and back again) BUT you would be able to store a couple different clones there (clone vat bay module, or actually USE the ones that are already available to Rorquals and Titans) like your titan clone and a subcap clone (much like the same with stations, 1 active clone, 1 inactive clone, no more than that).BUT, you would also need to defend your POS, cause you would not only risk losing your docked titan, but the clone's stored there as well, when the POS gets destroyed. Now, should there be a significant "risk" in losing your clone as well (besides the value of the implants installed in it), like a loss of skillpoints for the type of clone it is (again, depends on what implants you've got plugged into it), MAYBE, but that can be a subject for another debate.
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No it wouldn't. Most lowsec systems are empty. I could just jump into one via a gate and then jump into nullsec. Building in 0.0 will still require importing minerals, so nerfing JFs in any way that affects importing would nerf nullsec.
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god no, we need him.
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If we go with the whole upgradable PoS thing, though, why bar jump cloning out, when you can instead attach a hefty price in time, minerals and money for upgrading to Jump Clone capability - in the price range of, say, a regular outpost. Toss in a fuel requirement or even a "scout out a path back to known space and leave a breadcrumb trail of repeaters for the clone transmission" requirement. Breadcrumbs - which can be followed both ways (and which become useless and expire once the wormholes shift again).It'd give wormhole conflicts a big, shiny target presumably full of slave/crystal/+5 implants waiting to be burned to the ground so that tears may be reaped. Set it up so it shuts down when reinforced, cutting off reinforcements from jumpcloning in, make it generate a kill report listing the clones and implants destroyed when it goes pop.
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People will currently willingly get together in small numbers to level a small offline POS in hopes of shiny drops. If you could instead nibble at the outsides of an active full sized POS and come away either richer or annoy the locals into undocking and trying to scare you off, wouldn't you?
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I think this idea sounds amazing but the problem is this: If it's worth it to important stuff, even at much extra cost, from HiSec to 0.0, then it would be profitable, even at added risk, to export stuff built cheaply in 0.0 to HiSec.
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A lot of good ideas, but you also have to be wary of unintended consequences.Today, large blocks will attack tech moons and CSAA of smaller sov-holders. They cannot be opposed. (If all of Solar can't protect a CSAA, who can?) Thus, only the largest of coalitions hold tech moons and build capitals, in any significant quantities anyways, and certainly supers. Will turning all manufacturing into this kind of target also produce the same result? Only the largest organizations will be able to produce anything, deep in their space? I think it will, especially if there is an actual financial gain to be had from attacking them. So we'll have a situation where a few entities can produce their own warfare machine locally, without the need for headache-inducing and time-wasting logistics, and everyone else, if anyone is still left standing that is, continues to import everything at great cost and risk.
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Well, I'm thinking in terms of current jumpclone and wormhole mechanics (those parts do work fine, lets not go around fucking them up). BUT if current mechanics will support it (or with some minor tweaking, that wont totally wreck what is already working fine), then sure, go for it, as long as ther is a "significant" cost for this "upgrade" to the POS's (can't be something cheap, and easily thrown away).
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THINK OF WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE, MAN!!!
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What I was originally thinking with the upgraded POS's was like legos in a way. Like the real ISS, because it would be easier then and nicer looking then the anchor in the middle of space. Which upgradeable and as Syd Syko said, liveable. You now have a POS/Outpost that can be destroyed with lots of time,Isk invested into it I think upgradeable POS's that with enough time and money can do anything you need them to do and at the same time be wiped out would be a nice addition to the game.
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How would wormholes be treated with this? They are technically 0.0 space since their rating sits at a fun-inducing -1.0, so would they get these same bonuses to production and refining?
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@"Because the minerals simply aren't available locally"I hear this a lot, but notice that there are quite a few belts and gravometric sites in 0.0. Is there truly a mineral deficiency, or are miners simply cherry picking the ABCs to maximize their short-term isk/hour? I see a lot of veldspar in the belts.I'm fine with some of the author's suggestions as long as the author agrees that 0.0 industry should "not" be easier than hi-sec industry, yet still a worthwhile enterprise. We do not want to create the exact same issue in reverse, and hand even more isk to the SOV holders in the process. 0.0 life should be much harder than empire.
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Fool thinking. There wont' be any null industry on any wider-scale. Never ever. No ona sane invest billions of ISK in somthing that 70 titan/super or 500 drakes blob destroy in 5 minutes :P.First CCP need to rebalance all ship, especially totally nerf capital blobs. If they don't do that... your industry in null need chinese server scenario. Everyone are goons blue, so that goons can build industry in null.
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decreasing the number and efficiency of high sec services including manufacturing and refining at the same time as increasing the manufacturing abilities in null sec is totally required.While you won't make empire dwellers move by nerfing Empire, you can make serious producers think about taking their first steps to null. Like anything else in Eve they will have to be careful about which jump freighter they use to bring their basic requirements up with them.
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Great article but I still belive we need to give the new player an option to use POS to. lowgrade pos modules with cheap cost but low output is good enough for me.but the lowgrade ore in nullsec realy have to be improved. for example take Vedspar as an example this is how i envision it to workHighsec: Vedspar (normal, +5%, +10%)Lowsec: Vedspar (+5% , +10%, +15%) makes mining in lowsec more profitableNullsec: Vedspar(+10%, +15%, +20%) makes mining in nullsec more profitabledo this for all the empire ores but not for the ores you only can find in nullsec.
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Tell me: What does ship rebalancing to do with null industry? Also, talking about Goons in this scenario (and everyone having them blue) is *tinfoilt hat on* again...
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Why are belts the purview of small time miners? Belts are the main source of minerals in high sec. I don't see why they shouldn't be a main source of minerals in null sec also. I do understand that grav. sites provide benefits including added safety for the miner (and I think larger asteroids), but why should belts be ignored? It sounds like null sec needs to attract more miners in general, and make the low ends more worthwhile to mine than import. Perhaps adding denser (as in add new levels of density past just "dense" for example) low ends to null? I should add a disclaimer though that I have never been involved in null sec mining or industry so these are honest questions and not a troll.
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Grav sites offer several advantages to miners, especially people running multiple accounts or working together. Safety is a big one, as you noted, and you're also correct about the larger asteroids - big asteroids means you can point more miners at it without it exploding quickly. Of similar importance though is that the grav sites tend to be very densely packed - a mining fleet can reach the majority (60-90%) of the belt from just one or two warp-ins, which means less time spent moving around instead of mining, which means an overall higher isk/hr. On the other hand, someone mining alone with just one account will still probably prefer a grav site due to the safety it offers alone, but aside from that is less (or not at all) inconvenienced by mining in a belt instead.I'm not sure if "more" miners is what's needed, necessarily, but your "denser" low ends is more or less spot on - one way or another, the low ends need to be worth mining compared to the high ends, and even now with high ends deflated and low ends inflated, they either aren't, or only barely are. If mineral prices were more like their historical normal, they wouldn't be at all.That is, of course, if you consider the inability for nullsec to provide its own low ends to be a problem. I do, many others do, some don't. Who knows what CCP believes.
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Thanks for enlightening me. I remember reading somewhere that CCP wants null sec to be more self sufficient so I would hope that they would be in the camp that wants null sec to provide their own low ends. I think as long as freighters are having to get any basic building block such as minerals from high sec, it will be more space efficient just to bring the built item already. I'm not considering all the moon goo and gas products to be basic.
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It wouldn't be, necessarily. Even without local availability of low-ends, if I had the means to build in nullsec with imported minerals without feeling like I was punching myself in the balls by doing it, I would. With proper compression I can fit something like 65 Maelstrom worth of minerals into just two jump freighter trips. Bringing them in as finished goods requires 11 trips. So as long as I didn't need the battleships RIGHTTHEFUCKNOW (and if that's the case I've done something wrong already), I'm better off going the building route.
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Excellent suggestions. I think the key thing to notice here is that this does not require a major technical overhaul(new code systems etc) just reusing existing PoS mechanics and tweaking the numbers.One way they could stagger POS development would be to create Stage modules. Stage 1 module lets you anchor Stage 1.5 module(which in turn lets gives you various bonuses). However, while Stage 1 module is anchored you cannot anchor Stage 2(which in turn needs a Stage 1.5 module in place). Takes 1 week to unanchor Stage 1. Then you can add to your remaining S 1.5 mod an S2 mod. At which point feel free to remove S1.5(instantly or after an additional delay) and add S2.5. And so on. Nice clean and easy way to have POS slowly "level up".Hell, make Bubble modules optional. Varying strength/duration bubbles that reduce your productivity. You have a POS with no bubble? You can upgrade it's productivity to let you make Battleships for the cost of a Frigate. But you have to lock in BPOs and a ton of minerals in it for at least 1-2-..-X days. Better have excellent TZ coverage or astonishingly good secrecy. Huge risk---huge reward.
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As a Capital Builder in 0.0 i completly agree with this. Nullsec needs these things.Pos Refining @95-100%Pos Refineries should require less then 4000CPU to run. Spodumain should get some Love. Change the Mineral Output of Spodumain to 65%Trit, 25% Pyrite, 10% MexI build soooo many capitals by shipping refined minerals from a refinery station to a secondary station just to get more production slots etc. Even the shittiest 35% refineries in stations give a final yield of 99.35% with the right skills and the implant.Also when will we see some changes to empire? take away all of these neat services from empire stations and put them into lowsec. this way lowsec has a function. right now there is no need to ever leave empire for most pubbies.
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While you are busy obsoleting jita and hi and low sec economies make sure you destroy the WH economy too. That way Goons/PL/Test can just declare the entire game over not just Null sec and we can get on with our lives and save some monthly fees.
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With all this, you'd still need some way (costing probably isk or time) to harden your POS against different levels of attackers or otherwise manage your risk. My alliance lives in a particularly dangerous area. We like this for the PvP, but we also try to produce some goods. The industrialists already complain of frequent red incursions forcing warps to safe and making a new POS for manufacturing that could just be blown up by any 20-man BC gang would leave us probably semi-permanently incapacitated. Of course, we have defense gangs, but we'd still be vulnerable to an off-TZ assault.Possible suggestion: A module that, when activated, burns fuel at an accelerated rate but ensures that all modules have a reinforce timer. Obviously, such a module would decrease profit margins and thus be turned off whenever possible. Give it like a 5-15m online time, so you can do it at the end of an op but not in reaction to 'oh shit, suddenly battleships'.
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"Incentivizing Tech 2 production in 0.0 is trivially achieved by allowing an industrial POS to produce them more cost-effectively than in empire. This can be safely done because Tech 2 ships have extremely large amounts of waste when produced through invention, so their build cost can be significantly reduced in 0.0 (and only 0.0: giving the same bonus to industrial POS elsewhere defeats the purpose) without the risk of creating minerals out of thin air through reprocessing."Unlike your previous articles, this point was very poorly thought out. You are basically looking to take every Tech 2 BPO, and turn it into a t2 part printing press. Many valuable tech 2 bpos are currently researched to yield 2.5% or less waste, and when there are few parts involved, that generally rounds to 0 waste. Thus, to incentivize people to build in 0.0, instead of in lowsec or highsec, by creating poses that do not operate with higher efficiency, but rather, allow modules/ships to be produced with lower than their base requirements (Which is what you directly suggested, as waste from the product of invention based t2 would balance out this way), would be to incentivize T2 BPO holders to build as much as they could, as quickly as they could, then simply reprocess it, for a larger portion of materials, than they used for production. This is a terrible solution.A far preferable solution, that I propose, is to not increase the efficiency of build lines in 0.0, but rather to decrease them in highsec, and lowsec. This means not only increasing the mineral requirement modifier on station lines (This modifier could be reduced through upgraded amarr outposts in 0.0), but also on most current pos modules. Then, simply add, or restrict various production pos modules to only be anchorable with a system security of < 0.1, and leave them with the current 100% build efficiency that we see in most of eve. People will still build in empire for convenience, but it will allow people to offset in part, the hassle of hauling out to 0.0. This could work even better in combination with a reduction in the efficiency of highsec refineries.
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Well the real problem with all this though is markets.That's the real root of the issue with Nullsec production.Suppose you _can_ cheaply and quickly build lots of stuff in a "safe" alliance NS space. Who but the alliance members themselves will be able to BUY it there? Nobody. Who will go from HS thru the LS dangers to go out to the (inaccessible anyway once they manage to get there safely) stations in NS to buy those things? only the few, not the many, at best - and even then they have to survive hauling their goods back to wherever it is that they wish to be.Without some means of addressing the locality of market side of the NS production coin, all the niceties to make manufacturing more practical can only have a limited upside for profitability (unless somehow producing stuff for domestic alliance consumption will be enough to satisfy all the war supply requirements...and be satisfying enough a gameplay mechanic to make the "enablers" want to keep doing it indefinitely...doubtful).

In my last article, I mentioned that a large amount of combat that could take place in 0.0 is missing due to the lack of significant industry. In this article, I’m going to briefly lay out why industry is broken and how the POS revamp should be structured to fix it.

One of the best raiding opportunities in 0.0 these days is the destruction of CSAAs. Building a supercap isn’t possible anywhere but in space in 0.0: to build a titan you must venture deep out into space, throw up a tower, spend hours filling it with 60b worth of minerals, and defend it for around two months. Should anyone destroy the POS before the titan emerges, every bit of that money and effort is wasted.  Unlike every other ship in the game, it can’t be built in the safety of a station: it must be built in space, and it can be destroyed in space. As a result, alliances will throw everything they have into attacking and defending these towers: from throwing fifty suicide dreads at a CSAA deep in enemy territory in 2007 (which would have been a much better idea had the CSAA actually been building anything at the time) right up to the present day, where Goonfleet fleet commander DaBigRedBoat savagely butchered IRC twice to abort a baby erebus. Lotka Volterra, one of the first alliances sent to the dustbin of history by Goonswarm, died after losing a savage fight over a CSAA in JV-1V.

Industrial POS largely don’t exist in 0.0, aside from CSAAs. This is for two reasons. First is that industrial POS are pretty worthless. Second, is that industry in 0.0 is broken in general. These two problems are best solved jointly: make 0.0 industrial POS useful and relevant, and you solve 0.0’s industry problem.  I’m going to go through the problems with 0.0 industry first, then explain what a POS revamp should do to make industrial POS worth using, worth fighting over, and make industry worth doing in 0.0.

How Manufacturing is broken in 0.0

The core problem with manufacturing in 0.0 is that in every case it makes more sense to import than to build locally.  In some cases, that’s just unavoidable. Modules are so small and margins are so low in jita it’s always going to make more sense to load up a blockade runner or fill in gaps on a jump freighter and bring them in. Ammo is a little more annoying to import but the margins are so low, and the build time so high, that there’s no real reason to do it in 0.0. It’s not a big deal that these aren’t built in 0.0. However, in other cases, it’s because the industry infrastructure in 0.0 is so bad that even enormous import costs are better than trying to build locally, or because the advantages empire offers are simply too great to pass up.

Tech 1 battleships and capital ships should be built en masse in 0.0.  They’re huge, hard to transport in volume, and form the backbone of fleet combat in 0.0. In reality, though, that doesn't happen. Battleships are imported from Jita at great cost, while capital ships are built in lowsec and jumped into 0.0.  The inability to locally supply low-ends is part of the problem, but the big obstacle is 0.0's terrible "usable" infrastructure. The sole obstacle to production in highsec is logistics, dealing with the tedious but straightforward task of moving minerals to any of the hundreds of 50-slot stations with attached refineries. Capital production in lowsec is a little more difficult and requires some extra caution. A builer may elect to compress his minerals first, so as to save trips, but that is no obstacle. Like the highsec builder, each and every station he could use comes with dozens of slots and a refinery. In 0.0, that isn't the case. Compressed minerals are a certainty, mandating a refinery. Unlike empire, however, high slot counts and refineries are rare. For example, in Tribute, there are fewer production slots with an attached refinery in the entire region than there are in any single station in Empire. As a result, meaningful production means a lot of trips between refining and production stations, and no matter how "safe" people think nullsec might be, no one wants to make dozens of trips back and forth in a freighter. Back in the day, these obstacles were very grudgingly accepted. The time saved by using an amarr factory would allow you to build more dreads with less bpos, a great tradeoff when people were considerably more isk-poor (and capital ships in more demand) than they are today. These days, capital builders have plenty of isk, but need to manage burnout. As a result, they invest in a few more bpos and save the freightering. 0.0 battleship producers just give up, as the incredible tedium of ferrying around trit and finished battleships burns them out, and just begin paying exorbitant markups to import from empire. At the end of the day the effort and risk is just not worth it for producers.

As long as 0.0 lacks effective combined refinery/factory stations, it will not have serious capship or battleship production. The tritanium problem (the lack of any reasonable supply of tritanium and other low ends in 0.0) is largely solved through the use of large T1 gun compression. This does, however, create the irritating side effect that highends mined in 0.0 are shipped to empire, where they are then compressed into large guns to be reimported to 0.0.

Tech 2 ship production could be done in 0.0, but there’s largely no reason to.  All commonly used Tech 2 ships are battlecruisers or below (and most are cruiser sized or smaller). To build Tech 2 ships, you need every kind of moon mineral, reacted in a massive reaction farm. However, several moon minerals are regional and not available everywhere. These minerals, along with fuel, would have to be imported. Seeing as importation is required already, the extra hassle of running reaction farms and production lines is skipped in favor of simply shipping in finished product.

How the POS Revamp Should Fix Industrial POS

There are three main things the POS revamp should do for industrial POS. This will both help revitalize the long-dead 0.0 economy, and provide great targets for intermediate sized economic warfare that reduces the hostile alliance’s capability to wage war.

Allow the creation of local shipyards

0.0 needs shipyards. It needs to create Tech 1 and Tech 2 ships in volumes that can sustain the levels of warfare 0.0 needs. Every maelstrom imported from Jita is a lost chance to build up local industry, industry that in turn provides a target for hostile forces. Imagine a headshot, aimed not at an enemy’s “capital” but at their shipyards. Warfare of attrition through breaking down the enemy’s resources (rather than the style practiced now, which is simply breaking their will to fight) would become possible.

This means fixing the problems with 0.0 that prevent production of Tech 1 and Tech 2 ships in 0.0.

Incentivizing Tech 2 production in 0.0 is trivially achieved by allowing an industrial POS to  produce them more cost-effectively than in empire. This can be safely done because Tech 2 ships have extremely large amounts of waste when produced through invention, so their build cost can be significantly reduced in 0.0 (and only 0.0: giving the same bonus to industrial POS elsewhere defeats the purpose) without the risk of creating minerals out of thin air through reprocessing. 

To produce T1 ships, the minimum requirement is that a POS must be a one-stop-shop, capable of refining compressed minerals at 100% efficiency and providing a usefully larger number of production slots. Extra incentives such as build time reduction could exist but are not a requirement. While there may be various limitations placed on this refinery, they would have to be less draconian than those in place now. Existing POS refineries only achieve 75% yield, and worse yet are unimaginably slow - they can be outstripped by the production of a single mining Hulk. However, regardless of limitations, it must be able to refine scrapmetal, and must be able to be brought to 100% - even if only with exceedingly high skills. This is necessary even if the tritanium problem is solved in 0.0. Otherwise, it’s still a massive amount of risky mineral movement for little reward. If these requirements aren’t met, it’s unlikely there winds up being much of a demand for these pos.

Those fixes mean industrialists can and will begin building ships locally - and raiders can fall from the sky and put their shipyards to the torch.

Encourage Investment

The POS Revamp needs to allow for the creation of expensive, valuable POS that provide an incentive for builders to spend vast sums of money creating structures in space. Sums of money that were significant when POS were originally conceived are commongly regarded as rounding errors today. A POS simply is not much of an investment. A tower is a middling amount of money, and the modules are a pittance. These do not provide tempting targets for destruction: the ratio of damage inflicted to suffering endured as you chew through millions of EHP is...not favorable.  Shooting a POS hurts the attacker more than the defender.

By encouraging investment, allowing the player to spend large amounts of money to improve his POS, you can encourage people to create large, expensive structures that they care about. If they care about them, they will defend them, and if they do not the attacker will enjoy taking it from them. Case in point: it is far more hilarious to suicide gank a hulk than a retriever, due to the vastly increased suffering it causes.

Many 0.0 residents in EVE today are wealthy to a degree that was unthinkable half a decade ago. Titans, once expensive enough to bankrupt entire alliances, are now privately owned in large numbers. As a result, they need to be incentivized to part with that money. In addition, this means that the POS must be structured so if the POS is attacked, you will lose significant amounts of money if you don’t save it. This can be done by upping the cost of the modules. More valuable than isk is time, so it can also be done by requiring you to “grow” your POS: requiring a POS be in operation a certain length of time doing a specific task before it can be expanded farther. In this way, if your shipyards are attacked, you can’t just rebuild once they’re gone: you’ll be at a competitive disadvantage with new sapling POS that haven’t yet grown into their full potential.

Reward its destruction

Once we’ve created these useful POS, and created an incentive to spend a great deal of money on them, it’s time to reward people for burning them to the ground. Currently, unless the POS has a CSAA or is sitting on a moon you'd like for yourself, there's little incentive to destroy it. Destroying a POS must drop loot of some kind, giving the attacker some portion of the value he has destroyed to reward his efforts. A POS wreck dropping salvage, a factory dropping portions of the materials of ships in build, and the like should be part of the design. EVE has, unfortunately, lost most of the financial rewards for combat that were present in the early days of the game (since only modules drop while the ship itself blows up and drops token amounts of salvage, meaning the vast majority of the value of a ship cannot be looted). For ships, you at least get the pleasure of blowing someone up while they struggle and watch. For blowing up a structure, you’re left only with the hollow sense that, by not showing up and letting you waste irreplaceable hours of your life shooting a box while costing them an insignificant amount of isk, the defender has won again.

While it is not and should not be treated as a magic bullet for all of 0.0's problems, the POS revamp is a great idea. It’s my hope that by putting in the effort to revitalize industrial POS we can create a revitalized 0.0 economy. And with that revitalized economy, there are far more people to kill, things to plunder, and ways to make your enemies suffer.