Counterpoint: The Reality of the 'Blue Donut'

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Greetings from 1-SMEB.
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There are some good mmo's comming out this year and with the way things are in Null-sec many alliance's may lose a portion of their players who are tired of deffending moons, and the occasional pvp roam where you can fly 1 hour in each direction without getting 1 fight....I notice myself that Eve has the best meta gaming mmo ever created, and its often more fun to read then the play.Sov warfare should give the attackers something to gain both the grunts and the alliance itself.if no wars are fought what else is Null sec good for then ?Ye ratting anoms and doing some mining ops for the corps POS's, or the occansional Home Defence.The goal should be War, no matter how big or small your alliance / coalition is.I realy hope the next expansion will focus on Null Sec Sov Warfare.How and what needs to be done can differ alot from the current shit structure shooting that no1 wants to do.Good read m8 :)
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I feel like you haven't been paying attention to recent nullsec events at all.
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You could compare it to a cold war. The cost of an all-out war is too great and the involved power blocks turn to espionage, Real Politiks diplomacy, influencing and aligning third parties, some deployments that won't threaten all-out war, etc.Considering this, TEST should have gone with a Vietcong gimmick, rather than rebel alliance.
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OP, have you purchased your mining permit? I can sell you one for a mere 10m isk. All funds raised go towards the improvement of hisec.
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You're right.. there is a Blue Doughnut.. in that every person that lives and fights in nullsec willingly experiences grief on a daily basis and actively deals with it. This experience gives every nullsec resident a bond with every other nullsec resident that does, in fact, ~philosophically~ separate us from those who choose to play this game antisocially and safely. We are bound together by our common risk.When you're out in Nullsec risking being ganked every time you undock, how can you possibly sympathize with the histrionic wailing of some highsec freighter pilot or miner who lost all his pretty ship because he didn't understand what EVE truly is? How do you even begin to reconcile those views?Highsec miners have to step out into 0.0 to discover that there isn't really a blue doughnut.. except the one that exists against highsec dwellers.
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I agree, it took me the whole of 10 minutes to get from Dek to Delve a few days ago with a carrier full of ships which I could use to shoot other ships.I want to be able to jump clone to any station regardless of who owns it and my stuff come with me!
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Thank you for writing an article that isn't completely biased, void of huge grammatical mistakes, and not written by a doucheb- I mean James315. Your points are credible and backed by research and more than rambling propoganda.
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I just set up my first PI system on a planet in our HQ system.... dude, I'm addicted. I could easily see myself spending a scary amount of time trying to make P2 and P3 products. This will be my new past time while I wait for fleet ups. So.... I'm not quitting Eve do to "lack of fights". I found something else that's interesting to do! Yay!!!! \o/
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I like counterpoints on this site they are always very well written. The blue donuts exists they may not all be best mates but they are disgruntled neighbours.
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As long as goons and ccp have their isk for time code arrangement things will not change much since goons with real money making off of eve will remain dominant and the game will be manipulated
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I hold no real opinion on the is or isn't of the donut. But doesn't this roughly translate into "Thankyou for writing a post I agree with"?
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Even if James_315 is a bit of a "interesting" person, he has made good points about the "blue" donut. It simply doesn't exist. Yes there are some big coalitions, however there changed so much last year alone. HBC destroyed AAA the N3 Coalion has forged. CFC took over Vale in the Silence Solar lost a huge chunk of Space and the HBC split up and is about to fight around.
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Lol what are you smoking ionia? Everybody knows low sec belt rating is the best cure for boredom :-PSuddenly those pos grinds are truly riveting...
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"The first is that cross-region traveling is, frankly, a pain in the ass"To be honest, it's supposed to be a pain in the ass. 0.0 is meant to feel expansive. If you feel like you have to travel to far for fights I suggest you start by looking closer to home.
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The government just bought 100 tons of tin foil... You know this means they want to rid you of your tin foil by collecting all of it for themselves!!! Damn them to hell for trying to breach our second amendment right to bear tin foil. Defend the Foil Constitution.
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1)Goons aren't the only ones with RL money and 2) better plexes than farmers
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Bring the hate.But a lack of bias doesn't exist above. It really sounds like it comes from a high-sec mission bear.
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I don't think pos shooting is too grindy Thor, they are an asset that makes isk for an enemy alliance and so I don't mind killing them. Once you start talking about all those other extraneous structures that exist solely to 'hold sov', then my eyes glaze over.
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Ha, the joke is on them! Tinfoil guides the mind-control waves to the brain. Lead is the only material hats should be made from. Just be sure to shave your head first, to ensure maximum skin contact with the lead.Eating powdered lead can also help ward off the mind-control if you are forced to remove your hat.
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Having stepped into those boots just shy of 3 months ago, you will want fights soon.I would stare at my planets making money, now it's just another Eve chore. Don't get me wrong, it's made me hundreds of millions already, but it gets old fast.Also - if you're willing to really just sit online waiting for a fight - go ratting.
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Your premise is correct, but your arguments are lacking. Nullsec mechanics--logistics, distance, fuel costs, etc.--have remained essentially the same for some 5 years. Thus, you cannot blame the mechanics alone for the end of massive wars. It should be obvious that when your results have changed, the things that have remained constant are NOT the cause of that change. Sadly, most people do not follow this basic logic.
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Hah, the joke is on them. I sold them tin foil with no shiny sides at all. You need to put them shiny side *in* to keep the mind control waves from working, and shiny side *out* to keep the lizards from reading your thoughts. See my elite covert squad sneaking through the "farms and fields" of lowsec Minnesota with their properly applied shiny-side-out tinfoil covert cloaking hats:http://www.luclin.org/files/ta...
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I don't live in null, so I have to rely on the analyses of others to get a sense of what's going on out there. And I do read everything I come across that deals with null politics and sov mechanics, because the player-driven nature of Eve fascinates me, and has for a long time.My take away from all that second-hand experience is that there's a general malaise among a significant portion of null dwellers, and that malaise seems to be tied directly to the reality of Eve not meeting their expectations.When I read about the mechanics of sov warfare, my eyes glaze over. When I read about what's broadly defined as "top-down sovereignty," and why it's bad, I think I understand. What I don't understand is why some people think any of this is connected the safety of high sec, or the risk aversion on the part of many of its residents. It seems to me instead that the people who designed all these sov mechanics never anticipated the level of organization and efficiency that long-established groups would bring to the game over time. That makes sense to me, since I can't think of a single precedent from another video game where large groups of players have essentially mastered the social, economic, and mechanical phases of a ruleset that has Eve's level of complexity and depth.That *is* the reality of Eve at this point, I think, so it follows that organizations that have achieved mastery over the course of several years would want to mitigate risk. The mitigation happens mostly at a high level, meaning that large, highly-skilled organizations tend to do what's necessary to protect themselves from existential threats, while still exploding ships as often as they can. Those that don't go the way of Against All Authorties.So, the Blue Donut is a function of high-level players behaving rationally. That doesn't mean they're behaving fearfully, because they still have to satisfy the bloodlust of their line members. Most of the complaints about the Blue Donut seem (again, to me) to come from groups that haven't "mastered" the metagame; they're essentially demanding irrational behavior from their enemies in order to level the playing field.My conclusion, then, is that the perception of a Blue Donut is a real problem for Eve. The solution to that problem is not to demand that large null entities start behaving irrationally, but to change null sec mechanics to account for the realities of high-level player organizations.
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Very well written article! This reflects my feeling exactly.
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This was a pretty pointless article.James 315 says the blue doughnut doesn't exist because he defines it one way.You say it does because you define it another.Whoop-dee-do.
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Why would I rat? Syndicate sucks. Fuck rats. Fuck them. Fuuuuuccckkkkkkk ratttttssssss. Now PI.... my body is ready. Cause .. if I rat I'll probably jump off my roof. Boring as shit. Would rather fiddle with my planets and research what products mix together to make boosters. Then, boosters!!!!! Boosters for everyoneeee!!! Mwuahahaha!!!! The tinfoil and fluoride are in my head!!!
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I'm unsure of the claim that nullsec people are more interested in slapfights and espionage. Being a member of the CFC, I was involved in two major wars fought not that long ago against SoCo and NCdot, both of which were very fun. I understand and agree with many of the points you made, but perhaps "perception is everything" is the most important point. And you as well, good sir, are also under your own perception of things and perhaps not as objective as you want/claim to be.
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I don't mine ice, so there's no point in trying to extort me :)
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I am a highsec dweller, but I'm not a mission or mining bear. Not anymore.
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I'm not really accusing logistics as the SOLE reason for nullsec not having the sort of dynamism I would like to see. It's more a symptom of the real issue: nullsec alliances, except in balkanized regions still undergoing reunification (like the galactic southeast, or now the former HBC territory), generally aren't willing to fight their neighbors.
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I completely agree! Players should have mechanics drive them to fight. I'm not blaming nullsec players for not fighting; they are making the clearly rational and optimal choice.
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The point of my article was more that the blue donut isn't literal. It's more a perception of the end result of a bunch of things that are actually a part of EVE.
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Sure!I'm not particularly claiming to be objective. I do think, though, that there is a perception of the blue donut, and it is there for a reason. I'm interested in figuring out, then, why people perceive the blue donut. Even the strangest delusions are rooted somewhere in a factual event or rational observation.
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Cool RMT conspiracy bro
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Not everyone has the desire or inclination to set up a carrier to act as a home station. I certainly don't. Subcaps for life.
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That's an apt analogy!
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We are still riding the high of the balkanization of -A- space and HBC space. Due to the incredibly slow progress of sovgrind, it will be a while before it calms down.The issue is that, outside of those regions, nullsec is a quiet place in terms of sov trading and large-scale strategic deployments. Fights are fun (blobs ahoy) and fighting is regular, but it's like gladitorial combat; fighting without meaning to keep your sword sharp.
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But Empire isn't a donut. You might call it the Big Blue Ball, though.
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Hmm... nice of you to post this article and delete my last comment regarding the blue donut in the EN24 post. These points you touch off on seem like someone went to great lengths to emphasize the mentality of blue donut theorists that i commented about. Did Mittani put you up to this?
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So it's basically two highsec dwellers arguing about nullsec. Got it.
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Both james315 & tegiminis talk about hi&Null's views but they don't touch on WH's beliefs that there is ( or isn't) a big blue doughnut. I guess WHers are safely tucked away from either so they rarely have to worry about Null invasions: but once you hear cries from Nulls metas gamers for a wormhole stabilizer then they seem to come out from under their rocks decrying their space too would become part of the blue doughnut meme which they want no part of
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Good writting. I like the fact that you analyze both point of views instead of blaming everything about the concept on highsec dwellers. I'm not sure I fully agree on the causes of this situation. The ones you speak about are real, but I think there is a part of risk adverse leaderships to add to it. Justified, maybe, because you don't want to loose the 10k members alliance you built on a gamble, but it's part of the story.
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Sov takes too long to fight for end of story. Should be 1 structure and one structure alone, the TCU: Offensive fleet jumps in and reinforces the TCU, it goes into a 12 hour timer that gives the defenders enough time to save it if they can, if not the attackers blow it up and put there own in its place, simple. Stations and I-hubs should mean nothing in relation to Sov war. If there's a station in a system when it flips then it can either be taken by the attackers the normal way or the victors and losers make personal arrangments seperate to the sov mechanics. I vote to get rid of I-Hubs all together, system perks should be dictated by sec status alone.
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TL:DR: "There isn't literally a blue donut, that's just silly. But there kind of is because fuck flying in a giant semicircle to grind structures."Really? You needed a whole page just for that?
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I wrote this article before James 315's was published, as I proofed his article and wanted to write a counterpoint. I also can not delete comments, as I'm not a comment moderator.Cool conspiracy bro.
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Yes.
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"Nullsec tends to complain of the blue donut because they are sandwiched between allies, unable to find a decent fight within deployment range."Who's fault is that?
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*facepalm*
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"guys we have the biggest coalition in the game""man why do we have to travel 60 jumps to find a possible fight"-nullsec 2013If people want fights, move to low/NPC/WH. There is a reason there are so many people in that demographic who have done the sov game, hated it, and moved on to smaller, tighter gangs.
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Sov needs a rework. Ideally something which allows smaller units to affect it, rather than /needing/ huge fleets for every action. That's not to say that huge fleets don't have their place. But they shouldn't be the only option. I wrote http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/2013... about it a fair time ago. My ideas have evolved a bit since then, but the basic principle stands. And no, I'm not talking about button orbiting and npc killing. Just setting up fights where a hotdrop isn't the answer. The new hacking minigame can have its place in there too.
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W-space residents generally refer to sov holding entities as nullbears.Blue donut is something of a misnomer. Are there vast tracts of space that are held by coalitions? Yes. Is it one contiguous band where nobody fights each other? No.The current meta of "fuck structure grinds" is largely because sov mechanics are shit and they're tired of playing it.
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Nullsec players "fight" all the time, at least in the sense that the get their ships out and go blow up other people's ships like one might in lowsec/RvB. The thing about lowsec/RvB style PvP is that the only thing that you can possibly lose is spaceships (and occasionally pods if you're slow) - nobody in those environments will permanently lose access to stations where their warchest is stored (although recent FW changes introduced that concept).
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contradict yourself much?
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Is! Isn't! Is! Isn't! Is!Isn't!
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Not really, short of FW (a very specific version of lowsec PvP), you won't lose access to anything in lowsec ever. Even considering FW, all one needs to do to regain access is to drop out of FW, unlike nullsec where one would have to either join a group friendly with the new owners or take it back.
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"Rather, the blue donut is the principle that nullsec would rather slapfight or band together to trash highsec than actually fight each other."And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, because fuck highsec.
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You're completely clueless about nullsec and wormholes though, so why pretend to have a clue?
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Kindly leave that shit at EN24, thanks.Actually, I'll just let you go back to EN24.
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This comment isn't just amusing, it's also quite apt. The response given by highsec gankers as to why they suicide-gank in highsec instead of going to null, is that the targets,by and large, are in highsec. A festival of foolish targets, ripe for the plucking. If you've ever been to a large festival IRL, you know that there's a decent chance that the portable restroom facilities may be overstressed, resulting in, quite literally, a shithole of epic proportions. Highsec suffers from a deficit of a stadium's worth of industrial strength water closets, which were removed over the years as people kept giving carebears swirlies in them. This analogy may seem unnecessarily disgusting; but when one is confronted with a field full of excrement, pretending that it be otherwise and walking across it with closed eyes is an exceedingly poor coping mechanism.
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The irony here is that James315's original article should have included all the points in his article, plus all the points in this counterpoint, and then combining the two into a conclusion--which is normally what he does, resulting in huge cries of tl;dr! from the impotent masses. He writes a shorter article not covering every base, and TMC then releases a counterpoint to bring the coverage of the topic up to the usual standard of his writing....yet no one is bleating TL;DR, because they are confused due to it being split up into two articles.
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Well what can you expect really? A system rewarding you for smaller numbers would be a very strange thing indeed. Some sort of homeopathic warfare?
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Goons suck.
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I am all for nullseccers fucking highsec!
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Good thing I'm a hyfatter through and through.
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I have to agree with your opinion on James's "Messiah" stuff.Whilst it is entertaining in its way it gets old quickly, doesn't serve any useful purpose (save to line his wallet) and I think impedes people taking him seriously in other ways.
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In actual fact, not an awful lot of meaningful "invaded" sov has changed hands in the south.We are all still waiting to see if anyone will make a move on Delve of course.
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I dont fly in powerful often, but I have been on a couple of roams. Null wasn't full of people fighting. I don't claim to have enough experience to say null sec is this or that. I have however read on this website about people wandering the emptiness of lowsec and never getting a fight. Losing access to all your assets would only be a threat if these coalitions weren't fighting " cold war " style which by this article they are. However as the author lives in highsec he may not know anymore than I do about it. Though by printing his article on this website I would say the mittani grants him some level of credibility.
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Sorry my phone changed null sec to powerful how weird is that. My post is a little incoherent I apologize I'm a touch scatter brained.
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Going back through recent (and not so recent) times, several alliances/coalitions have lost their space by having it taken from them: -A-, SOLAR, Ev0ke, NC., Raiden., White Noise, the old Northern Coalition (at least the eastern arm of it). The list goes further back in history, but I can assure you that people have lost access to their stuff through the sov grind.That grind is generally avoided when facing an enemy that can dictate the terms of the conflict (ie a large and/or powerful bloc), which is what the core of the issue really is (as MC, the OP in this thread pointed out with "high-level players behaving rationally"), but it does happen and that's what is at stake.
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How can that be an apt analogy if the blue donut is not a myth? Two or more groups engaged in hostilities does not sound very "blue" to me at all.Also my personal experience in null sec is that everyone will shoot you, not remotely blue.
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I have been locked out of some of my assets. I am close to highsec , however so don't need to keep as many on hand as nullsec has to. So no major loss compared to those coalitions you mentioned. I would argue that nullsec looks more like pre world war 1 Europe than the cold war era. It just needs an arch-duke to die. I would also say that the largest problem in null are coalitions. Sov-grinds are unbearable because they are so vast. You can't your get fights because you have so many friends. Ultimately as a grunt in a video game your own leadership and thier greed are removing more content than they have created . No one knows who your best pilots are because the more voices that hold weight the more difficult it is to lead you. The mittani has done something awe inspiring in eve for his own glory, not the advancement of his minions. I could be wrong though just sayin if mittani wasn't written so big across nullsec how many more names could there be?
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What research backs it?
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James 315 also says it is not literal, and also says it's based on perception, so how is this a counterpoint?
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It's true that people have lost access to their stuff, but for an individual player who pays some attention to how their coalition is doing there's no reason to risk losing heaps of isk worth of stuff. I've been on a losing side a few times now and I've never had some devastating loss of assets, simply because it's easy to see what's going to happen weeks before it actually does. Not to mention the actual sov grind mechanic runs over several days.Most nullsec players these days will have a ratting ship and maybe half a dozen pvp ships in a conquerable station, which can be contracted out even if they do lose a war and forget to move any of it.Yes, people lose their stuff but they really have to have been incredibly ignorant of the risks.
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He outright states that it's false because of a literalist interpretation.
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What's better than fucking hi-sec? Fucking null sec carebears!
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You're full of shit because, believe it or not, "nullsec pvpers" need an income source
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Yeah there's a reason why those three areas combined host maybe 10% of the players
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Great read
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WTF is a blue donut.I swear you niggers are making this shit up.
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Guerrilla warfare works in real life. Something that allowed smaller groups of players to penetrate behind enemy lines and wreck shit up might be interesting, but I'm far too noobish to guess what exactly it might look like.

Go read James 315's article on how the "blue donut" is a myth, and then come back here. Done? Good.

He's wrong.

Now, he's not entirely wrong. He brings up some good points - nullsec has never seen an era of complete peace, ever - but it quickly descends into fallacious assertions and elitism. The blue donut is very real. It's just not the one described by James 315, as that concept is a strawman and a ridiculously inaccurate one at that. Rather, the blue donut is the principle that nullsec would rather slapfight or band together to trash highsec than actually fight each other. "Shoot blues" may be the phrase of the day, but "shoot structures" isn't.

There are two kinds of people that point to the blue donut, as mentioned by James 315: nullsec line members and highsec carebears. Both groups tend to lace their statements with hyperbolic nonsense (RMT moongoo is the stupidest thing I've ever heard), but inside each is a nugget of truth. So let's go!

Fundamental Problems With Sov

Nullsec tends to complain of the blue donut because they are sandwiched between allies, unable to find a decent fight within deployment range. Some alliances circumvent this with some seriously impressive logistics groundwork, but most seem to sit in their corner of space and only bring the big fleets to their own neighborhood. Even when they do, sov changing hands is not on the menu; shoot bad guys, but not their structures!

There are two reasons for this. The first is that cross-region traveling is, frankly, a pain in the ass. Without a decent highway through highsec, going from one end of nullsec to the other takes ages. Picking fights in regions beyond the ring of allies is troublesome, as it involves some incredible logistics work and long travel times. People want to fight, not watch their ship in warp for an hour before trying to fight an enemy that inevitably flees.

So yes, technically you can find an enemy in eastern nullsec to fight. It is, however, so far away and so boring that it's not generally worth it unless you have a beastly support crew willing to keep you fueled, armed, and shipped up.

The second is - and we all know this - that sov is garbage right now. Top-down sov encourages static structure-shoot play and the manipulation of reinforcement timers and timezones. That's incredibly boring, especially since there's no real way to engage in actual, real-life-styled warfare. The alliances are so rich and the economic means so safe that effectively waging a war of materiel attrition is near impossible on a large scale. Rather, most wars are won via morale.

James 315 brings up the dissolution of coalitions and alliances as proof that nullsec isn't part of the blue donut. That's patently false. The major dissolutions occur because of morale breaking, high-level betrayal, or good, old-fashioned internal politicking. Alliances and coalitions do disband based on external pressure, but the major wars of nullsec are fought less on the actual battlefield and more in dark alleyways, intel briefings, and smoke-filled political halls. With sov being so static, the balance of power has shifted from total warfare to corporate espionage, as nobody wants to show up to shoot structures with ridiculous HP totals. This is why spymasters and politicians like The Mittani are so effective.

Trash on Highsec

The other side of the coin is the highsec carebear. These poor creatures are the subject of much bittervet discussion, despite not having much representation in media and politics. Perhaps it's just their gentle, caring nature.

The blue donut concept appeals to highsec because there is a very real section of the EVE populace that looks down on them, and most of those people come from nullsec. James 315's extortion scam, for example, regularly pisses off miners. It leads to some hilarious ragemails (as seen on his site), but it also adds to the concern that nullsec's goal is to trash highsec and the people that play there. The "messiah of highsec" schtick, along with proposed changes that sound more like EVE as it was instead of EVE as it should be, pisses people off.

There are also the null and lowsec-run events such as Hulkageddon and Burn Jita, which specifically target the highsec demographic (miners and haulers, mostly) and draw in nullsec players from disparate, often-warring alliances to annihilate their common enemy: the carebear. When faced with such an organized resistance to their way of life from nullsec, it's understandable that highsec puts faith in the blue donut concept. They've directly seen the actions and results of nullsec-run events aimed at uniting against highsec.

Perception is Everything

EVE is a game of perception. While the literal mechanics of the blue donut (everyone in nullsec sets each other blue) are not - and never will be - a part of the game, the results are similar to what would happen if they were. Nullsec alliances seem more concerned with slapfights and espionage than all-out conquest, with some exceptions, and highsec sees regular "nullsec invasion" events. These are the characteristics of the perception of the "blue donut": a ring of alliances too afraid, lazy, or annoyed to truly fight one another.

When you shift the definition from the commonly-accepted perception to a literalist strawman, of course there is no blue donut. There never could be. But the blue donut isn't quite so black and white. Much like EVE itself, the concept is somewhere in-between; a gray area of boredom, pretend battles, mock war, and null elitism.

[name_1]
Prolific game journalist and big gay robot. Editor-in-chief and general curmudgeon. Fight me.