Blappage, Wormhole Space, and Jumping the Gun

Avatar
It's simple.The Moros is very powerful.Bhaalgorns are the main counter to caps, and they are massive, in both mass and signature radius.A possible solution would be to buff the Legions' neuting capability while nerfing the Moros a bit.
Avatar
Well, I guess there's no longer any question about which dreadnought I should train for.
Avatar
I cant speak from a nullsec POV so i wont comment about WH Blapping.However, as one of the Leadership of an alliance that regularly deploys Blapping Dreads (Drunk 'n' Disorderly) i can say that this isnt overpowered. Its one of the few remaining viable tactics left to counter the 'blob' that doesnt involve risk free 'nano kitey faggotry'. If the moros was able to solo blap an entire fleet then fair enought, but it isnt. it requires co-ordination across the entire fleet to enact properly.Also. whilst using 'Blapping Dreads', you are commited to the field for a set duration of time which allows you to be countered with either more caps or supers or just more numbers, so it is hardly risk freeTBH tho, i do agree that the moros is OP compared to the other 3 dreads however imho the other 3 dreads should be buffed, not the moros nerfed.
Avatar
an other option would be to simply reduce Moros tracking and dps to bring it in line with the others.
Avatar
EDIT: -nullsec POV +WH POV
Avatar
My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than 'bring more stuff'. - Is this not the same issue with supercaps?? besides there are plenty of counters to dread blapping.... a couple ecm ships jamming the webbers and it doesnt work....
Avatar
" the other 3 dreads however imho the other 3 dreads should be buffed" <- This!
Avatar
You realize that tracking on the moros is fine? A blapping nag will have 3 sebos 3 tracking comps and TP in meds and tank with lowslots meaning it has the same tracking as a moros and I dont know if the forum posters are clueless but on a rev you normaly fit atleast 1 T2 tracking rig meaning you'll reach the same tracking as a moros. The only reason why moros is better is because it DOES the RIGHT kind of damage T3's have a kinetic hole in their tank.If you've never used a blap dread and don't understand the mechenics and fittings required for it as well as DRUGS you should'nt be talking about them~
Avatar
The counter to this is, as has been said, is ECM on the webs/painters, and ultimately destroying them, leaving you a lovely collection of helpless dreads stuck in siege to kill at your pleasure. Combined with keeping your transversal up and being aware of the tactic that is how you beat it. Obviously you wont beat it every time, but it reduces it to a tactics based engagement without a foregone conclusion, surely thats what we want all fleet fights to be like?Supercap blobbing on the other hand..
Avatar
If one dread is actually useful in fleet fights, the others should be buffed. Dreadnoughts should be useful for something other than grinding structures.If one side of a fight puts several dreads on the field, sieges them, and has the significant support necessary to successfully paint and web opponents to a halt, I really don't think they should be punished for beating nanofleets and small sig fleets. I think most of the complaints are being angled at groups like Drunk 'n' Disorderly, who are willing to put 30-40 billion ISK worth of dreads on the field and siege them. There's really no reason they shouldn't win against most traditional fleet arrangements, when they'd amount to far less ISK and far less risk.
Avatar
First of all, this is completely incorrect: " In addition, wormhole systems are vastly too far apart from each other for jump drives" Wormholes are plenty close enough to jump between, but CCP has disabled jumping.Secondly, relying on the damage numbers in killmails to decide if a dread was part of a kill is flawed. The damage numbers often have no basis in reality.Thirdly, those two examples were truly just two of many. In 2 minutes of searching, I found http://dontshootx.com/killboar... and http://dontshootx.com/killboar... and those are just from looking at the AHARM KB. Just because you guys haven't used it much doesn't mean it isn't a problem.
Avatar
The small sig fleets the op is talking about are often full armor T3 fleets, which cost easily the same amout. If guns and missiles have tracking and signature radius, it's not for gigs, and really small stuff should really counter those. Or at least be able to repair it and receive only moderate-high damage.
Avatar
Because no one know about ECCMs.And supercaps have exactly the same flaw, but at least in nullsec (there is none in WH), you CAN bring more stuff if needed. It's a lot harder in WH. When you invade someone's home system, you will often have around 2 or 3 caps at best, when they can field as many as they want.
Avatar
Because you can't fit more tracking stuff on the moros too, and have a better tracking (with still a better dps) ? I think moroses have fitting slots too.And only legions/lokis have a kinetic hole. Tengus (farmer's T3s, okay), and proteuses have a perfectly fine kinetic tank.And if the damage type was the problem, why would the caldari dread be so bad? Right, because the problem is tracking against sig/speed. :D
Avatar
"First of all, this is completely incorrect: " In addition, wormhole systems are vastly too far apart from each other for jump drives" Wormholes are plenty close enough to jump between, but CCP has disabled jumping."Based on what? They don't show up on the map, so I just assumed wormhole systems were free-standing entities with no connection or relevance to any other system other than through the wormholes themselves.
Avatar
The counter is ECM and Neuts to eliminate the webbing lokis. People need to stop crying about this and change their tactics.
Avatar
The static data dump gives the wh systems locations. They are close to each other but far away from New Eden.
Avatar
Yet, the Moros is so OP that K162 only field one + plenty more useless Revelation...
Avatar
I was thinking of boosting blues remotely, not targeting the dreds or the red subcaps
Avatar
Once again TwoStep says he is speakign for a most people when infact it's his own whines and tears! When will we get rid of this clown?
Avatar
They should really balance them all "in line" to the revelation, so the Moros gets a bit worse dps-wise mostly and the specially those poor Minny and Caldari creatures can finally use their stuff aswell.
Avatar
Fuck that, Capital blasters should be baller as fuck. You get less tank in a Moros than a Rev. That's the tradeoff. Though I agree that the Nag and Pheonix need buffs
Avatar
Tracking Dreadnaughts are one of the funnest meta fits to come to nullsec/lowsec. They allow people to fight at a numbers disadvantage if battleships are overwhelming. They really only work against things with large sigs, yet I see retard wormhole groups dropping them all the time on lowsig tanking strategic cruiser groups. I assume it is to clear out carrier triage or bhaalgorns, but I almost never see them on the BR's so it doesn't make much sense how they are able to kill stuff with low sigs.
Avatar
web them till there nearly sat still and tp them to death with ur support magic happens and there sig is nice and big the dread isnt op and without the webs and tp would be fkd take out the webbing ships first then deal with the dreads
Avatar
yeah i didn't think about TP's
Avatar
Two referenced fights do not convey the issue as it was Magnetar systems which reduce tracking significanly.
Avatar
Having flown with DnD in the past I know the use of this tactic in lowsec well. It's a big risk; if your fleet is forced off field your dreads are as good as dead. It requires skill on both a pilot and FC level to pull off. If you lose your 90% web ships (which are usually expensive vindicators) your dreads are also useless.However I don't think they should be able to blap anything smaller than a battleship. Perhaps target painter stacking amount is to blame?
Avatar
damps are also a good gounter here spread across the support with ecm makes it even better
Avatar
I don't care if you devote a full rack of jammers to my Loki, you're not permajamming it with 66.9 sensor strength. All it takes is one missed jam and pop goes the cruiser. :PNot to mention other ships like the Legion will be fitting webs as well.
Avatar
I think a few things need to happen:1) Bring all the dreads in line with each other. Maybe allow the Moros to keep its insane dps, but lower the tracking. Give the Nag another turret at least. Give the Rev more dps or range. Just some ideas... Idk about the Phoenix.2) Make sig size matter more. Right now dreads can alpha a T3 cruiser if they're properly webbed (FYI, there's no way to stop this—you can't jam out a full fleet of properly fit Lokis). Make it so that you need a sig size slightly bigger than a BS for X-L guns to hit for full damage. This would allow dreads to keep their effectiveness against capitals and BS, but require more support (and thus more openings for countering) to bring their full dps to bear on subcaps.These are just my ideas and there could be better options out there. I'm just surprised that so many people insist that everything is just fine as it is. I think you have to admit there's a degree of imbalance here—even if you don't think it's as big a deal as I might argue.
Avatar
There are 113 C6 wormholes not 30. Again, this wasn't just something that I made up on the spot, many many people have mentioned dread blapping as a big issue.
Avatar
All I hear is something similar to the 'anti-blobberz eleet peeveepee' dudes in nullsec"BBBBBAAAAAWWWW I came into the enemy home system and he won't fight fair!"
Avatar
Great - lets whine and make all capitals structure shooting only. First titans are killing battleship fleets so that got nerfed, then supers will killing subcaps so they got nerfed, and now dreads with specialist subcap webs, painters and points are killing subcaps and are going to get nerfed further.No wonder there is a proliferation of unused caps in New Eden - nobody can bring them to a non structure grind fight without causing complaint.
Avatar
Yeah so many have come out in support of your nerf LOL, those that have supported you are two other alliances that live in C6 space. You should take note of the countless others that live in C5 space that use the Moros to fight each other and don't see it as an issue at all. Maybe AHARM should move to C5 space to get more fights? we get so many and don't bitch and whine about it.The problem i had with you proposing a nerf is you and your little C6 club have clearly discussed this at length and found it to be such a concern, but instead of bringing it up as a debatable topic you went straight to CCP to get it nerfed, and you know full well how badly they screw nerfs up when they do them on the fly.I disagree that dread blabbing is an issue but i agree the moros is out of line with other dreads but if you want it to get the dev time it deserves, make it a proper debate with other people (Try doing blog posts on your blog from time to time) then get CCP to look at the issues when we have a better response to give them then "Hey we in C6 space think this is OP nerf it"
Avatar
Spoken like a true bear, GTFO of WH space.
Avatar
Avatar
"considering that wormhole combat is centered around small gangs in small ships... but here we are."We are the opposite in this w-space corp. Everything is focused on our dreads and triage. We have small numbers so we need these big ships to get the most out of ourselves.
Avatar
Blah tactic is uncounterable = I'm horrible at eve, too lazy to work out a counter, and a sore loser.The only thing that's hard to counter is the damage that this attitude causes. Shame on you.
Avatar
I'm Butthurt because AHARM's 1 fleet type cant kill all the things. Therefore CCP should nerf everything i dont like. As a matter of fact instead of nerfing dreads they should just buff AHARM. Then they would be gud at PvP.
Avatar
Heres the thing though... Nerf Whatever... Then we'll find something else to kill you with... then you'll want to nerf that. Stop nerfing all the things. If you do not like W-space anymore move out. Go to Hi-sec where there are no dreads.
Avatar
More Like if you do not like capital ships move to hi-sec. nuff said

If there's one thing wormhole players love, it's a good technical argument about game mechanics. There's a bit of a disagreement between w-space pilots going on right now, and it centers around the apparently controversial tactic of 'dreadnought blapping' in pilots' home systems. It's rather ironic that w-space PvP groups would be debating the legitimacy of dreadnought usage considering that wormhole combat is centered around small gangs in small ships... but here we are.

Dread Blapping and Its Implications

Like the OP in that thread, most pilots probably don't know what dread blapping is. It's simple, really. Using a combination of stasis webifiers and target painters, organized fleet members can stop a ship practically dead in its tracks and blow up its signature radius to multiple times its normal size. Nothing new here, right? Right, except that when this ship is made stationary and effectively gigantic, it is easy prey to a well-placed dreadnought sitting nearby. Dreads were conceived for the purpose of destroying large, stationary objects and saavy players have figured out how to make smaller ships fit the bill. Thus, dread blapping was born.

In nullsec, this is less of a problem. It's certainly a popular tactic, but outside of decidedly lopsided battles, fights involving capitals will usually require the dreadnoughts on field to focus on destroying the enemy capitals, while the subcaps support them and fight the enemy's subcaps. Both sides have the option of fielding as many capitals as they can, and there is no disadvantage to either side, beyond the fact that one group will usually have many more capitals available than the other.

Per usual, things are a bit different in wormhole space. With extremely rare exceptions, wormhole mass limits mean that capital fights are confined to C5 and C6 systems, and even then, the biggest wormholes will only allow three capitals to transit before collapsing. In addition, wormhole systems are vastly too far apart from each other for jump drives, making wormholes themselves the only option for moving capitals around. This bottleneck strictly limits the scale of an impromptu engagement, and unless you happen to be fighting in your home system, opponents are all subjected to the great equalizer of hard limitations on capitals.

If, on the other hand, one of the participants is in their home system, they have a distinct and major advantage. For those who live in the higher-class C5 and C6 systems, there is a sizable capital reserve available to most major and even minor PvP groups, and they're generally not afraid to throw a cap or five at fleets sitting on their static wormhole. With this overwhelming advantage, dreads become more effective still. Six Moros can destroy almost two dozen strategic cruisers every minute whereas an attacker could manage about half that, if they're skilled and lucky.

This is not to say that all fights in home systems involve the defender bringing loads of capitals. Far more often the residents don't have that many capital pilots online, or they simply prefer to have a fair fight. The possibility exists, though, and as w-space continues to grow in population and wealth, it's likely that we will see overwhelming dread based tactics more often.

One Little Problem

Not everyone is happy with this development. Buried deep within the latest CSM minutes, as a brief mention on page 50, was the summarized exchange between CSM member Two step and the EVE development team regarding dread blapping and the possibility of eliminating it for cruisers and below. No real progress was made in solving the "issue" since the problem wasn't well understood. The participants couldn't even resolve whether it was a dreadnought issue or a wormhole issue in the time that they had, and the vague promise of informal, future discussions was offered so that they could all move on to other topics and stay on schedule.

After release, this passage went mostly unnoticed for a couple days, but it was only a matter of time until someone's alt started asking questions in the Wormholes subforum. A few people, myself included, seconded the request for a response, and Two step replied less than three hours later:

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than 'bring more stuff'. I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

Two Fights

In the thread that followed, we saw two camps emerge: those who claimed that dread tactics are uncounterable and those who saw counters in ECM, neuting, and increased transversal. Surely, we don't want to nerf a tactic if it has a ready counter, but if none exists, we have to find out what's wrong and focus on that. Talk is cheap, and the first real evidence presented on either side was found in this post referencing fights between Exhale. and NOHO and AHARM and Exhale.

Looking at these battle reports and especially the nitty-gritty of the kills themselves, two things become immediately apparent:

  1. Exhale's fight against NOHO was lost without dread blappage being a major issue. They lost one ship primarily to dreads, and it was the larger-sig Damnation. Try harder next time.
  2. Exhale's fight against AHARM was lost to Moros guns specifically. Yes, there's a single killmail where two Revelations get a decent hit, but really no more than five Guardians should be able to rep without the 32k Moros hit.

It would appear, then, that the issue isn't dread blapping per se, but rather that the Moros has insane tracking speed. In a previous post, some numbers on tracking were presented, putting into perspective the massive tracking advantage that the Moros has over all other dreads (more than double the next-best Revelation). This, combined with far superior DPS, makes the Moros the one and only vessel capable of reliable dread blapping to the point where it becomes overpowered.

Let's Talk About This

Part of the incredulity that many pilots experienced when they first heard about Two step discussing a nerf with the devs was that it came as a surprise to many well-connected individuals. As best I can tell, those pilots who have been complaining to Two step about dread blappage have mostly kept their concerns close to the chest - even from their own members. Nobody that I come into contact with regularly has mentioned any concerns, and this was the experience for the people I've spoken with as well.

I think it goes without saying that if there was an open conversation about the issue, people would have been less reactionary. I can only hope that the next time Two step sets out to propose a nerf to the ship balancing team, he will get input from a more representative sample of those he represents, and not rely solely on the opinions of those who want it done. After all, if the CSM wants communication from the devs, why wouldn't the players want it from their CSM reps?

Whatever your opinion, if you'd like to take part in the conversation, go post in the thread. It's still active and I'm in favor of a collaborative process. I think we all deserve a chance to discuss this before we start pushing for a solution to what may or may not be a problem worth fixing.

Abis Cann
Straight outta J115405, I'm a wormhole resident and director in Hard Knocks Inc. When not writing about wormhole PvP and events in the greater w-space community, I enjoy jokes about Kazakhstan and the occasional glass of delicious tears.