Battleship Tiericide Review

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RIP Armageddon, it was nice knowing you
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CCP hasn't really adressed the point that the raven is absolute junk for anyone not a newbie running l4 missions. After these changes, there's no reason to use it for that either, as the typhoon will be better at just about everything. Any role the raven can possibly fill is better done by another ship. Tengu's run missions and rat better, even now typhoons are better torp platforms, and tier 3 battlecruisers and battleships outdo it when you want suicide high DPS ships.
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Apoc fleet shall rise again.
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Lolpoc sphere of unavoidable lazor death!Also hyperion.. lol active tanking with only one cap booster. gg
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Raven had it's time in the sun, let some other ships have a go for a while.
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my wallet disagrees that the battlecruiser rebalancing was disappointing from a speculation perspective. (excet tier 3). aren't you part of the infamous goonswarm financial cabal????
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New here (~6 months). Does this affect the Faction versions of these Battleships in any way? How about Pirate BS?
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Right now they will not change.But they will be updated in due time....Faction Frigs are half iterated (navy only) (pirates not toutched to my knowlege)Faction Cruisers (untoutched)Faction BS (untoutched)T2 Frigs (untoutched)T2 Cruisers (untoutched)T2 BattleCruiser (announched but not told yet)T2 Battleships (untouthed)Capital ships (untouthed)Super Capital ships (untoutched)Industry Ships (announced but not told yet)T2 Deepspace transports (announced but not told yet)as you can see there is several ship classes that still needs to be iterated.im guessing after BS is finalized (summer) Faction/T2 Frigs and Cruisers is next (speculating)done: T1 FrigsT1 CruiserT1 BattleCruiserT1 BattleShips Mining Barges T2 Cloaky Haulers Navy Frigs
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When was that? Before the torpedo nerf? You gotta be kidding me. Large missile systems have been irrelevant in PvP (bar structure bashing) for years now and with them, the ships that use them.
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Yes he's a jewbal guy.
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Why are CCP doing a massive push on nerfing ships, why not buff the ships that are supposedly worse. With these changes to BS and the tracking enhance nerf coming soon there just screwing over new players bounty cycles in null.
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How the Gallente can be the losers, if they were already the worst?I've seen all tier3's in awesome fleet doctrines, but the Hyperion. The only heavy hitter unable to fit a full rack of the heaviest guns (Neutrons/425mm's) without powergrid assistance modules/rigs/implants, or giving up mobility, tank or both.Bump the PG and cap to respectable levels, and MAYBE there will be a green competitor in the arena.
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its just the typhoon. Its still full of minmatar just amarr people give out orders.
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Bah... I guess it's good I cross-trained into Amarr battleships recently. I don't like them messing with my Mega. :(
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Add navy cruisers to that list...
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The raven is a miniature dreadnought in my eyes, and therefore perfect for pos bashing in c4 and down wormholes where we can't easily deploy dreads. It also looks kinda cool and as a cheap mission ship it is useful.
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They have ruined the hyperion, its only role was to be flown as a solo/small gang pvp BS in lowsec usually, using two LAR:s, however for that to work you need to heavy cap boosters, now with that removed the ship will actually be useless... I have no idea how CCP were thinking here
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correction "two heavy cap boosters"
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Hyperion got none of the love it really needed, instead it got kicked in the balls and curbed on the Vegas strip. Then the mega got slapped in the face. I'm thinking CCP has a hate-on for Gallente...Typhoon new OP brawler. Tempest is baller, Apoc is Anti-HAC 2.0. Raven was nice, but new 'Phoon makes it UP. Dominix is meh, pretty sad beside the new 'Geddon, which is smex. 37km Heavy Neuts anyone?TL;DR, CCP hate Gallente, tiercide continues to change nothing in Null Sec doctrines.
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Topic on every CCP Meeting:Why is anyone still flying Gallente, and what can we do to stop it?
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I'm happy that the Armageddon is now a drone boat but very displeased with the loss of drone bandwidth for the Megathron and the Typhoon. Both of those ships should have kept their 125mb bandwidth to carry a full flight of heavies or sentries.
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Because it is always better to nerf than boost
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LOL Next time I fly past your planets i will poor a drink out for your lost Innocence. :CCP:
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They got even more worse, that's how. ;)
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That wasn't a very clear sentence. When I mean it was disappointing, I meant that the change was only around 50% (higher for some, lower for others). Cruisers by contrast were a 70-100% change in material cost, for example.I still built several hundred of each of the formerly Tier 1 BC though.
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I'm willing to wait on the raven for final judgement until the large missile rework.
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Why don't we just have stacking penalties on Remote Reps, but not on Local Reps? I won't pretend doing so would be trivial, but done correctly would solve balance issues across a range of fleet engagement sizes, supercarriers, the need to alpha slowcats, etc. It would also allow smaller fleets to do some damage to larger ones.Feel free to tell me this is a horrible idea...just tell me why.
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Sigh... I feared your comment! :)How to disagree?...
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Why disagree when it's true?...
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Hyperion is still garbage. I am hopeful that torps and cruise missiles get the buff they need though.
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Well to be fair it is too broad a statement. The Dominix is pretty nice and the Megathron has potential. ;)
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I like fozzie more than kil2 now....
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It probably would be trivial to program. Thing is it takes CCP 6 Months to do stat changes I guess.
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Hype and Mega stats removed from CCP Rise's post.Probably even they realized the humiliation was just too big. :)
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50% tracking and optimal range on the Domi in one bonus is incredible. I don't understand how people can't see that. Its going to be op as fuck. 750 DPS @ 80KM with .09 tracking at 400 signature on the guns. For comparison a Zealot has .076 tracking and 125 signature on the guns.
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... you know that a lower gun signature is better?
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I think you're being too generous to the revamped Megathron, and I'm really glad to hear it also got pulled for revision along with the Hyperion. Honestly I'm not happy with ANY of the Gallente changes, but I will admit the Dominix was the least offensive.
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And no mention that the Apoc, in it's only niche it has, long range engagements, has absolutely no chance to utilize it's tracking bonus and is all but outclassed at shorter ranges.The Geddon is awesome, though ... so awesome that I doubt it will go live with this stats.And to your Dominix comments ... Armageddon achieves slightly less DPS with 5 blasters, but still has it's bonused neuts, which makes it in my oppinion preferable to an Dominix.
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I read an idea once that RR should have a signature/speed component, making Large RR onto fast-moving Cruiser hulls less effective. I think this has potential.
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Why not use t3 BC for pos bash in holes? Lower mass, cheaper, more damage, less skillpoints to fly, and if the enemy shows up, can leg it quickly. The oracle doesn't even need ammo.
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and more PG for Hyperion!
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To be fair, Gallente ships tend to be used fairly often (and to great effect) in solo/small gang engagements. Is it really that terrible that not every ship in the game is tailored specifically to giant fleet comps?
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Navy Cruiser changes have been announced:https://forums.eveonline.com/d...If that thread is any indication, the Navy BSes will be interesting and not restricted to the new roles and abilities of the T1. Personally, I'm hoping the Navy Geddon, Navy Mega, and Fleet Phoon all stay about they same - they're all fantastic ships that are in a really good place (at least for solo/small gang work).
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CCP Rise: "Yeah so we nerfed Gallente Battleships"Last person on the planet still flying Gallente: "But why? We were already shit!"CCP Rise: "Tiericide"Last person on the planet still flying Gallente: "???"
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The geddon is now a neut domi on crack. It can fit 5 Heavy/2 Med neuts compared to the neut domi's 3 Heavy/3Med. That, combined with the range bonus and pretty trivially getting 700+ dps (using the 5H/2M neut setup, with no torps) and 120k+ EHP is going to make it a mean son of a bitch.
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After buffing Gallente in every patch for the last two years or more.I bathe in your tears.
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lol buffing gallente? Thanks for your input Kil2
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An interesting thing to note is that a CNR with rage torps and CN BCUs in the lows (needs max skills and, after rage missile changes, two range rigs) puts out the most dps against a large tower out of any subcap in the game (barring the state raven).
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hahah
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Well CCP says all ships need the same number of slots and only two bonuses.For some reason
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My proposed changes give them the same slots as they had before (so the same as what CCP wants) and maintains the two bonus system.While dated, this system works, and shouldnt be change I dont think unless there will be sweeping changes across all of EVE's ship base.
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Stealing my name?
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Not the name, but definitely the fame :PIt's NetheranE from BC btw.
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1) Tengu's run missions and rat better. -> Raven is a T1 hull. Tengu is a T3 hull. Doh. Of course a Tengu is better at a lot of things because it's a T3 ship, with T3 resists, subsystems you can customize to whatever you want, etc. etc. By your line of reasoning any T1 ship that is not Pirate is junk.2) Typhoons are better torp platforms.-> Better HOW? Sure they hit smaller stuff better, but at the same time a Typhoon is forced to use armor. And armor is really out of style for the most part in EVE. Shields have instant reps, better align times, better speeds, and they leave plenty of lowslots for damage mods.Any difference in "explosion velocity" (and radius) can easily be mitigated through webs (and painters).3) Any role the Raven can possibly fill is better done by another ship.-> What about a cheap T1 battleship where you can fit a shield tank and missiles, and that is also bonused for missiles?4) "Tier 3 battlecruisers and battleships outdo it when you want suicide high DPS ships"--> And a Moros outdoes a Charon in terms of DPS. Evidently the Charon sucks for structure bashing. Congratulations Sherlock Holmes.
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How about this, the biggest cycling rep is the one that doesnt get effected, then the next largest and so on gets stacking penalties, which wouldn't effect reppers over time, but would nerf being able to spike the tank up.Or maybe a system where the reppers need to warm up, or a distance based effect.Order is going to be an issue no matter what though, (no way shield tanks would be able to use a stacked system) but it seems to work well.
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Comment showed Commander Ted replying to commander ted when I posted.
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Dominix lost a little bit of DPS with an unrelated weapon system in exchange for better damage application with it's specialized system AND an improved tank. No one's forcing you to use sentry drones. I fail to see the issue.
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Dear Rise,The Hype is such an awesome-looking ship. Please make it worth the isk to actually fly it.
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Says alot about the state it is and was in doesn't it? It's hybrids that has been buffed and not Gallente by the way. Hybrids are also used by Caldari which is making both the Naga and the Rokh pretty awesome just to name a couple.
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It's a shame active tanking isn't viable for solo-pvp because there's something very sexy about the thought of being self-sufficient in the heat of battle.
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Y'all were just bad with it. Try not being bad.
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More Minmatar Missile Boats! Surely, we all need our fast missile boats!
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I find the Dominix plenty offensive. It looks like a turd.
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Gallente just got updated:https://forums.eveonline.com/d...Holy shit the new Megathron and Hyperion are positively sexy. They might both be fleet viable to boot.
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Good thing PvE doesn't exist in this game, otherwise people might then gallente and amarr ships were useless still...
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The Dominix, Nyx, Moros and Talos are beasts. Gallente have a lot of worst-in-class ships (helios, nemesis), but some of the best also.I never thought the short-range brawler + armor tank thing made sense, but it's 10 years late to change that. /shrug.
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From a balance perspective I never understood why missiles weren't primarily an armor tank weapons system instead of blasters. You want to blow people up from far away so they're dead by the time they reach you. No need to run away.Blasters on the other hand should be on fast ships that can get in range to hit before they die.CCP got Gallente and Caldari mixed up when they handed out the racial doctrines.
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Here's the thing though: Caldari ships are slow. They are the slowest second only to armor-tanked Amarr.
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the typhoon is brutal atm, yet is never flown, and it serves its description beutifully, but since when does ccp want to do things right, lets make it a missle boat with no drones so it applies dps like a dread hurr durr

CCP Rise posted the first pass on Battleship Tiericide today. As with previous tiericide initiatives, this is only a first pass, and if players bring up something significant that he may have overlooked (see the first iteration on the Harbinger, for example) that will be addressed. But, let's take a look at what we've got now.

The overall goal is like past tiericide iterations - eliminate the "tiers" and instead group the battleships into "Attack" and "Combat" roles. Each race will end with one Attack battleship and two Combat battleships, except for Caldari, who only get one Combat hull, but also get the only Disruption battleship in the form of the Scorpion. This hints at the future possibility of new battleships, but I would not expect those until a much later date. Across the board, Attack battleships will have hitpoint numbers similar to Tier 2 battleships now, with a focus on speed, agility, and damage application and/or projection. Combat battleships, on the other hand, will have hitpoints similar to Tier 3 battleships (and indeed, all Tier 3 battleships are now Combat battleships) and will favor a balanced mixed of offense and defense.

Here are links to each of the four threads, and then we'll begin!

Amarr Battleships

Caldari Battleships

Gallente Battleships

Minmatar Battleships

Resist Changes

Before diving into the battleships themselves, it's worth noting that both the Abaddon and Rokh had their resist bonuses nerfed to 4% per level. While CCP Rise promised a thread discussing it, it's not up at time of writing. As you'd expect, it results in a roughly 5% reduction in EHP at Battleship V. I'd chalk it up primarily to CCP's ongoing efforts to balance active and passive/remote tanking though. Personally, I think it's good that they're continuing to iterate on this, but at some point a sweeping change will be necessary. So long as remote reps put out reasonable rep numbers, the ability to point an arbitrary number of them that can be perma-run by the user will always trump the local reps, limited as they are by both slots and capacitor.

Amarr

I (and many others) predicted a shakeup here, given that all three Amarr battleships were some flavor of "lasers and armor", and none of us were disappointed. I absolutely agree with CCP Rise's assessment - had things been left "as is", the Abaddon would have become even more dominant. That's not the case, though.

The Armageddon got the largest changes, morphing as many expected into a drone boat, the ultimate entry in the line of ships started by the Dragoon and Prophecy. The new bonuses are the standard +10% per level to drone damage and hit points, and a very unexpected 10% bonus to neut and nos range. Imagine the way a Dominix is often flown - neuts, tackle gear and an enormous tank - and that's what the Armageddon has become. It picks up a big EHP boost befitting its new role as a Combat battleship, along with a greatly expanded drone bay, a large chunk of capacitor, extra CPU, and five launcher slots to give it the same weapon flexibility as the Prophecy, Arbitrator and Dragoon. To top everything off, the slot layout will be changing up a bit, shedding a high and a low, and picking up one mid; drone battleships get 18 slots, as opposed to 19 like every other ship. Downsides are an increased sig radius and a small nerf to mobility (both are in line with Combat battleships, though) and the loss of 2000 grid. The loss of that grid will restrict fitting options and force compromises if you plan to fit the largest guns, and neuts, and a tank, but I don't see it hurting the ship's viability at all.

The Apocalypse also gets a bit of a makeover. One of the themes of Attack battleships is damage application and projection. To that end, the Apocalypse retains its 7.5% per level optimal range bonus, but swaps the Large Energy Turret cap use bonus for a 7.5% per level tracking speed bonus. A lot of people are predicting that the loss of the cap bonus will be the death of the ship, but I disagree. The Apocalypse has a larger capacitor capacity and recharge rate than the Abaddon, which also lacks the bonus yet is a staple in certain doctrines. Most of the remaining changes are as expected to bring the ship in line with the Attack role; a nerf to EHP, but a buff to mobility and signature radius. One last minor change is a small nerf to the drone bandwidth, though I expect hardly anyone will notice. It retains the 75m3 drone bay, and the post-nerf 50mbit bandwidth still allows pilots to field a flight of medium drones.

Last up is the Abaddon, which is unchanged except for the nerf to its armor resistance bonus. As discussed above, this is approximately a 5% reduction in EHP. Currently, an Abaddon with a Tech II 1600mm plate, three hardeners (explosive, kinetic and thermal), a Damage Control II, three trimarks and Legion bonuses has around 220.5k EHP (assuming max skills for all parties). Post nerf, that drops to 209.2k EHP.

Expect to see the Abaddon continue to form the backbone of certain doctrines post-patch. Beyond that, both the new Apocalypse and Armageddon are highly likely to take support roles in a variety of armor doctrines at least, and the Armageddon will be downright ugly in smaller scale roles as well. Whether the Apocalypse will start to form the backbone of its own new doctrine is an open question, though my money is on "no". While Pandemic Legion does field Navy Apocalypse "Foxcat" fleets, those hulls enjoy a significant EHP bonus as well as other smaller bonuses, and the tracking bonus just doesn't make up for it. I'd be thrilled to be wrong though - doctrinal variation is never a bad thing.

Caldari

Out of all the races, the Caldari probably change the least. Like the Abaddon, the Rokh does is unchanged but for the nerf to its resist bonus, and like the Abaddon, it comes out to a ~5% loss of EHP.

The Raven is becoming the Caldari Attack battleship, and picks up a nice set of small buffs. The two most notable changes are an extra 1500 grid and 50 CPU, and an extra mid slot, albeit at the cost of a utility high. Combined, those ought to make Torpedos a little easier to fit, and give the ship a bit more flexibility for non-tank mids, or simply a stronger tank. The remaining changes are what is to be expected for an Attack battleship - EHP nerf, signature radius buff, and mobility buff.

The Scorpion is all but unchanged. Extra shields and structure bring it in line with Attack battleships in terms of EHP, and CCP's "round number" initative gives it the same buff to capacitor capacity as the raven.

All told, the Rokh is not going to go away in doctrine fleets any more than the Abaddon will, and the Scorpion (despite the move away from it in CFC fleet doctrines) will continue to be a common sight in fleets. The buffs to the Raven are a very welcome set of changes, but the ship remains underwhelming for now. That's largely a matter of large missiles being a weak weapon system, though, and CCP Rise stated repeatedly that they'll be getting a review in short order, in time for Odyssey if possible.

Gallente

Update: CCP Rise has removed the stats for both the Megathron and the Hyperion from his post, so expect new versions of those in a couple of days.

The Gallente thread got the most dev attention day one, with plenty of back and forth between CCP Rise and players. CCP Rise described his reasoning for the changes to the Hyperion and Megathron here. In short, he sees both ships as brawlers, but the Megathron as a more flexible ship akin to the Tempest, while the Hyperion is conceptualized as a very focused heavy brawler.

We'll revisit those two in a moment, though, and start with the Dominix. Aiming to make the ship a fully dedicated drone boat, CCP replaced the Hybrid bonus with a 10% bonus to drone optimal range and tracking, to match the existing drone damage and hitpoint bonus. The downside to this is its a big hit to the potential DPS of the Dominix. The live version of the ship can (with a maxed out damage setup) dish out just shy of 1700 DPS, over half of which is from guns. On the other hand, the new ship will still push out 1500 DPS in that same max damage setup, and its drones (normal and sentry alike) will perform significantly better in every role. Overall, it's a very fair tradeoff. On top of the bonus changes, the Dominix picks up the extra EHP, signature radius and (unfortunately) mass characteristic to the Combat line.

The Megathron is probably the less controversial of the two Gallente blaster battleships. It trades a low slot for a mid slot for more flexible fitting options. It also attempts to focus more on gun damage by trading 25mbit of bandwidth and the hybrid damage bonus for a hybrid rate of fire bonus; if you favor heavy drones, the damage output ought to be roughly similar, just more gun focused. The hull gets a small boost to fitting, capacitor size, and mobility, and a small nerf to its EHP, more of a rounding error than anything else. As linked above, CCP Rise is attempting to focus the Megathron more into a flexible Attack ship with a variety of fitting options, and in this he has succeeded reasonably well. One change I'd like to see is a larger gain than the +25 CPU it's already picking up.

The Hyperion, on the other hand, is an abject failure if player feedback is anything to go by. It makes the opposite trade that the Megathron did, picking up a low at the cost of its fifth mid. If the Megathron is supposed to be a flexible utility ship, then the Hyperion is supposed to be a dedicated heavy brawler. In practice, active tanking (armor especially) remains pretty awful, and CCP's love affair with the bonus is going to make the ship difficult to balance until that changes. There's really no way around it.

All told, the Gallente remain the underwhelming race when it comes to battleships. The Megathron is not half bad despite remaining stuck pretty firmly in a solo or small gang role. The new Dominix is a possibility for a fleet doctrine, except for the "vulnerability of sentry drones to bombs" and "we'll revamp drones, Soon™" issues. And similarly, the Hyperion is plagued by the "we'll make active tanking competitive, Soon™" issue. I've seen some good suggestions in the discussion thread, with one of the best (that keeps it within the role) adding a 7.5%/level cap use reduction for armor reps. We'll have to see what CCP Rise does, though.

Minmatar

Last but not least are the Minmatar changes. No overarching comments here, so let's just dive in.

The Typhoon is first up, as the recipient of the most sweeping changes. As expected by many, CCP Rise has transformed it into a missile based ship. The 5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo rate of fire remains, while the projectile bonus is traded out for a 5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity bonus, essentially enhancing a Typhoon's ability to hurt smaller targets. The downside is a loss of utility. Six launchers and seven highs means limited utility high slot options, while the drone bay can no longer support a full flight of heavy drones. For all that, though, it adds up to a solid brawling ship, and the potential buffs to large missile systems will only make it better.

Next up is the Tempest. The largest change is a considerable EHP buff as befitting its new role as a Combat battleship. That's accompanied by an increase in signature radius, and a little bit of extra grid.

The Maelstrom is entirely unchanged, like most of the other Tier 3 battleships.

There's no reason for the Maelstrom based doctrines to go away, so they're not going to. The Tempest is going to continue to fit into the niches it currently does; don't expect it to supplant the Maelstrom in Alphafleets, despite the EHP buff. The Typhoon is solid and interesting, but like the Raven, it will need the large missile review to reach its full potential.

Final thoughts & Future Speculation

If there are winners and losers when it comes to tiericide, the Gallente are definitely the losers. As mentioned above, expect further work on the Hyperion and possibly Megathron. By contrast, Amarrian battleships are the clear winners here, and I shouldn't need to explain why. The Caldari & Minmatar changes are pretty middle of the road, nothing to excitedly write home about for the most part, but not much to complain about either.

As to the future, CCP Rise has dropped a few hints. Large missiles should be getting a revamp "soon", which probably translates to the summer if possible, Odyssey 1.1 at the latest. Less clear is the drone rework, which was also mentioned, but in less firm terms. It should also surprise no one that a Navy battleship rebalancing will be coming up. Based on the cruiser balancing, expect the Navy ships to get new bonuses to fill in roles currently left vacant. For example, CCP Rise hinted very strongly that the Typhoon Fleet Issue would remain a split bonus ship. In the spirit of the Scythe Fleet Issue, perhaps we'll see a 7/5/8 slot layout that retains the 5/5 weapon slots with the gunnery bonus bumped up to 7.5% per level.

Finally, still unreleased are the mineral usage changes, numbers eagerly awaited by market speculators around Eve. While the Battlecruiser tiericide changes proved to be fairly disappointing in that regard, the reasoning (Attack Battlecruisers are very big to support big guns and thus use more minerals) doesn't really apply to Battleships. Once these changes hit SiSi we'll know for sure, but it's not unreasonable to expect Battleships follow the model of Cruisers, with Attack and Combat classes very similarly priced. If you're planning to invest, you may want to get started before it's too late.

Seven year veteran & economics guru of EVE Online as well as CSM 8 representative. On the side I play PS2, WOT and Hearthstone.