Traffic Control: One Thousand Megathrons

Avatar
Rename article to " A Flight of a thousand Null Bears" please
Avatar
If your ship can kill my ship, my ship should be able to kill your ship. You don't get to cry "broken" when my ship kills your ship.Pretty simple.
Avatar
Nice disscussion culture calling everyone with another opinion an idiot every other sentence
Avatar
Easy fix: Ewar could have a percentage chance to affect supers. Even if it's only a 1% chance this will be enough.Just like the days when a single torpedo bomber avoided swarms of enemy fighters and anti aircraft fire; fired one shot and sank an aircraft carrier.Unlikely, but it's possible.It would force those with the 'Apex' blob to protect them, just in case; or, it would put them off using them as there is now a slight risk to them.
Avatar
Your detractors aside, this article is nothing short of brilliant and a very accurate summary of what is right and wrong in Eve today. Question is, what's the "fix" or set of fixes ? I have no idea.
Avatar
Remove the +1 drone per skill level bonus from carriers. Make Drone Control Units give you +2 drones instead of +1. This way you can choose if you want to fit your high slots with logistics or DPS (in the form of DCUs). Currently carriers can do both.P.S. - Mittens writing makes me hard... does that make me gay?
Avatar
Whilst I agree with the sentiment that a new player should be able to do *something* in a fleet within a few days, the fact that you can't send subcaps to a super fight is due to server loading issues, not the subcaps themselves. The underlying issues with the single threaded code, mean that CCP have done about as much as they can to cope with bigger and bigger fights, until this is "solved" (Eve 2) this is the situation we're going to have. Also there should be a subcap (ideally a frigate, let's call it an "x-wing") which is designed to kill supers, so that there is a hard sub-cap counter.
Avatar
Why not remove EWAR immunity completely ?
Avatar
Heavy Bombers like back in the day when everyone flew threw Flak in Wing commander to get them damn Launches without dying. Make them cruiser sized.. new T2 cruiser firing one hell of a load that is geared towards hurting capitals. Keep them uncloaky. Make it so there salvo will do shit to anything smaller then a Capital. We already have the HIC for pinning down a super, Lets make a Variation built upon destroying it. They come on Grid... Align towards it's Target, have it close range like bomb itself Hope you survive the approach Fire.. Wait to see the damage and prep your next run if you didn't get blapped off the field.
Avatar
No, being gay makes you gay
Avatar
I'm coming to realise that the Fountain War may well be the last true war based around the battleship meta rather than the super capital/capital meta, and Goddamn if that doesn't make me sad. I still remember my last (poorly fit) Celestis when I bumbled into my first fleet fight way back then. I got bombed off the field, but the strategic objective was won. The FYF was a brilliant doctrine that allowed new players to meaningfully participate in the *serious business* of SOV warfare.You're right of course. SOV warfare should be inclusive, in the sense that it shouldn't have a massive SP barrier to entry. People come to this game after hearing about 6VDT and B-R. People should be able to be part of that in a meaningful way reasonably quickly. I'm not surprised they decide not to stick around when they find out that they're effectively redundant unless they've got a year and a half under their belt.
Avatar
The fact of the matter is that these super blobs are game breaking, and there's no easy fix. I Wouldn't want to be the poor guy over at CCP who has to figure out the solution.
Avatar
I've often wished for a kamikaze frigate as a counter-cap boat. A Rifter with a suicide vest. You get to fit a single high slot with a one shot bomb that does massive damage to a small radius at very short ranges. You will not survive your own attack...
Avatar
A single crucifer frigate worth 1 million isk with decent skills can fly around the outskirts of a fight and make a 250 million isk battleship completely useless.A specialized fleet of bombers can wipe out a subcap force 5 times larger at 20% of the cost per shipWhere is the ship that has an effect even remotely similar in a supercap fight?
Avatar
Excellent article! That's the best summation of why I took my 30mil sp out of the CFC. Even though I am great support with HICs and ewar, I couldn't fly caps, so in a big fight I was kindly asked to leave. And its not just the CFC, the big blocs are both like that. So thanks to mittens for bringing this up, now to see if CCP listens...
Avatar
Very well writen sir.
Avatar
Because.(Yeah I have no reason other than people hate change and I suspect 1% chance of ewar working is more acceptable to people than 100% chance.)CCP could always increase it steadily towards 100%.
Avatar
Oh, but I wasn't comparing megas and carriers.I was just stating what the next apex force would be, which is "n+1".Mind you, the CFC is the best contender, when it comes to n+1.Wanna fight for a good cause, Mittani?Lobby CCP into un-blobbing sov.You have the leverage, do it.Otherwise: make an agreement with your eastern slumlord buddies, free up the south, let people invade it.Russians, but not only.Make some space for the new blood.You can tell whatever you want, but BRAVE has been the single greatest source of fresh, nop-affiliated nullseccers in years.
Avatar
and the only reason they got into sov null was because WE LET THEM. Don't you see how incredibly awful that is? Do you understand how doing what you've suggested is a very limp bandaid over a broken leg? The SOV that exists should be taken by force, or cunning, or treachery. Not because it is literally impossible for anyone to break in except by the benevolence of the established mega blocs.
Avatar
I like this article, I can read that you are completely sincere. I love it.
Avatar
Then let it be benevolence, as of now.Let them get stronger, rile up pilots, skillpoints, isk, experience, whatever.At least they'll be injecting some of that naivety and fresh ambition nullsec needs.
Avatar
It's not even benevolence... it's just to provide content to the blocs in the form of easy farming. Provi and HERO exist to be farmed....
Avatar
I joined eve because I seen the Butterfly Effect advert. I totaly agree that a new player should be able to take his rifter and kill everything with it. Skillpionts do not translate as gaming skill. some of those newbies in rifters are fucking baller.
Avatar
As somebody who spent b-r in ewar frigate whoring on 4 trillion isk worth of kills ( and doing nothing of actual value ) i would happily take those odds...
Avatar
It doesn't matter, as long as it's bringing new people to nullsec.As long as it's creating new factions, new rivalries, new stories, new FCs, new "content to be farmed".
Avatar
What if you remove Cap/Supercap immunity to E-War? Make 20 rifters, each with a point and a damp/ECM able to hold down a Supercarrier?
Avatar
Besides, you may perceive Providence and Brave as farming material.But they're having fun.They're doing stuff, being in space.Isn't that what matters?
Avatar
My 1 like is me agreeing a thousand times over. Butterfly effect was the last advertisement to actually represent the potential impact you can have in eve. get back to that stuff ccp marketing department!!!!
Avatar
I seriously want to find the d-bag who started people using "intellectual dishonesty" as one of the newest buzzwords and flavours of the month. He or she has much to answer for.
Avatar
To play devils advocate: Hictors and Dictors, although they are only effective if the group actually WANTS to leave. Even then, typically their bubbles can be cleared off with a few bombs or smartbomb cycles.
Avatar
I'm not criticizing Provi and HERO... I'm just saying that the blocs don't allow them to live because of benevolence... it's because it suits them to keep the line grunts happy.
Avatar
Surely there are ways around the wrecking-ball approach of using carriers. A carrier can still be jammed after-all, sure they will be running eccm/remote eccm. And with the mega only having 4 mids, dedicating one to a racial jammer is a high cost, but would this not increase the chances of being able to engage such a tactic, as you said 150 carriers was an often occurrence. With double the number of megathrons each with a racial jammer would it not be possible to really mess their rep/energy chains if you pick a select few who are capping each other? I'm sure you've already tested this and I'm guessing it wasn't very successful? Again yes this doesn't help with the whole sentry dps etc... Could noobie pilots fly things like arty rifters and the like to keep popping sentries, no carrier is going to spend all the time shooting small arty frigs while there are megas on the field so with 100 or so you could really diminish the dps? Again yes then you have to rely on the other fleet not paying much attention to their drones.. But I'm just wondering was any of this attempted?
Avatar
Heavy Bombers have been thrown around for a while... But you have to take overall balance into account, a blob of Slow cats will still be able to hit and kill them with Sentries making them ineffective.Making Carriers only able to use fighters and no sub-cap drones, would be a very unpopular move but would completely reduce their effectiveness in fighting all classes of ships... the new fighters will still be able to kill most things with the correct fitting etc. but the travel time and limited numbers in the Drone Bay would de-fang them.
Avatar
The new Wrecking Ball set up with supers moves all logistic capacities to the ewar-immune supers on field preventing just such a scenario from happening. Plus, once drones are aggressed they will continue to fire even when the ship is jammed.
Avatar
Excellent article. I entirely agree.
Avatar
You are confusing Slowcats with Wrecking Ball... Slowcats is a blob of Archons, Wrecking Ball is a blob of Aeons/Nyxes, which are immune to e-war.Celestis was a very efficient ship, low SP ship against Slowcats, and CCP was quick enough to nerf it
Avatar
Back in the fountain war you were quite smug about your megathron blobs killing test slowcat fleets. I remember you writing that that should be a lesson and a large force of subcaps will always be superior bla bla. Things must have changed since then?!
Avatar
All that could have happened in one reply instead that obnoxious chain.As for the notion of artificially allowing new entities to come in, there's many fatal flaws there.Any organization that is not an ally of your coalition is a potentially a new affiliate to your rival coalition. There's too much incentive for alliances to join coalitions to ignore this.Also, an organization that's allowed into the jungle, artificially spared from the predators that would otherwise attack their sov, has no realistically viable target or goal to pursue. All they can do is try to hang on, without the opportunity to attack or break even, while their opponents are holding back. Their ability to make income is hampered by being constantly farmed. Their ability to organize is stunted, as perpetual losses tend to create short-term organizational disarray, which would hardly get a chance to recover. Their ability to pull together and harden up would be pre-empted by the farming. Their struggle is pointless and frustrating, up until the point that they join a coalition.And should they manage to hang on, harden up, and organize, then that means they have become capable of threatening their neighbors. This makes them attractive as an alliance to be poached by one coalition or the other, or failing that, worth purging.There's more reasons beyond this. But the takeaway is that the house needs to be built on a foundation of rational self interest for all parties involved. Your proposed artificial wargames will devolve back into the self-interested pragmatism eventually, at best, and at worst will render null- gameplay pointless.
Avatar
No it's not
Avatar
"Newest"? "Buzzword"? Just because you've never heard of something before doesn't make it new.
Avatar
Yes it is.
Avatar
Ah right yep I got that one completely mixed up. Thanks for clarifying, I read sentries and assumed it was slowcats instead of supers with the logi capabilities XD... maybe a bad thought, but how about making things that are ewar immune unable to use ewar/remote reps themselves? Could push the balance back to slowcats making it weaker? Supers would still do stupendous dps but would be less able to spider tank between themselves.
Avatar
Yep sry, read the above comment, same reply to this one :)
Avatar
"To play devils advocate"< insert 10 more examples of subcaps having a variety of uses in fights big or small. >Still wondering why the "end game" is super capital dominance plus interdiction equals win.If i started a 14 day trial and looked at the training time for either of those ships you mentioned ( or a capital...) eve would not seem so appealing.
Avatar
Ah but all of this is still assuming that 00 is the endgame, there are many different places where someone in their frig can still be part of the endgame, sadly it just seems that for the time being 00 is not said place
Avatar
We have heavy bombers in game already, they're the tier three Battlecruisers. And as you can see by their popularity, they kind of don't work out well outside of paper. Unless you are asking for well beyond that in terms of firepower and also being within the black ops fold - which would just make them prohibitively expensive. The bombers we have work because of low skill floor and low manufacturing costs make them spammable.
Avatar
Everything dies, I love DAOC but it got old and died(well technically its still alive in the US).Eve will not change due to people being unwilling to take the first step, the 'Apex' forces will still be used until entities like N3 (BOB) and CFC (New BOB) disband and go back to alliance warfare (you know, back when eve was fun and new).A supercap amnesty sounds good to a lot of people, but that only fixes one side of the issue. Why would mittens give him his empire for the good of the game? you can nerf/change values in game to 'fix' the supercap issue, but you can't change the human problem behind the CFC's apex fleet.
Avatar
Good article. I agree, the statistics agree and most of the playerbase too (i imagine). Now i just hope CCP reads and this and get to work on it.
Avatar
Its not a "human" problem. A "human" problem is a failure in organizational structure, the current state of political affairs is the inevitable outcome or "the human solution" from poor game mechanics and bad design. This system eventually stabilizes, what we need is a system that doesn't favor stabilization as a final outcome.
Avatar
Void bombs. Ships with heavy neutralizers. Hictors. Dictors. Artillery Tornados with 2.5M volley / 20 seconds per fleet to push slowcats over the edge (see: Every BL vs Test fight in Fountain). I know much of the CFC has T2 artillery skills. Come on, put some effort into that noggin!(Edit: A comrade pulled me aside around noon today and set me straight on void bombs. I'm not going to coward edit that out like it never happened, but I do want to admit a fuckup on the part of that statement)Three Celestis damps applied to an Archon with three sebos increases the Archon's lock time against un-skirmish-bonused battleships to 21 seconds. This is three and a half minutes in Tidi -- more than enough time to tell the primary to just warp out and warp back. The Archon component of Wrecking Ball can no longer (1) sentry assist (2) reliably trigger drones independently. Wrecking ball as a concept that translates capital damage to subcapital fleets is dead. Can it still turtle? Yes. Can it fight? Hell no.Now that sentry assist has been capped and the wrecking ball's anti-subcap capabilities are de-fanged, subcaps with \meaningful\ ewar -- I'm looking directly at the two heavy neuts CFC Dominixes fitted during the Halloween War -- can get close without being blapped every six seconds and start breaking the supers' cap chains.HED-GP's dread vs super fight? Working as intended. B-R5RB's Titan-on-Titan catfight? Working as intended. Every other instance of Wrecking Ball going up against subcaps safely by virtue of the defensive power of sentry assist? I'm not sure we can pull that off anymore.
Avatar
I wouldn't call the HED or B-R5 fights "working as intended". HED failed cause CCP's servers prevented CFC forces from loading in and most of the ships in both fights couldn't even cycle modules reliably. B-R5 boiled down to a titan brawl because every other ship became useless in the severe tidi. Had dreads been actually working for the fight, it could have turned out very differently.
Avatar
The rhetoric's increasing, winter is coming, and the CFC again look to R'hllor for a nerf so winning eve is easier for their hordes of neck beards. -
Avatar
I don't think so.Providence exists in the exact condition you just described.(Let's take out the NRDS part, we all know what provi NRDS is.)Despite being an un-profitable, continuously farmed, perpetually invaded, cloaky-camped 24/7, despite the lack of any serious SRP, despite the lack of a proper capital-supercapital force, despite owing its existence to big block benevolence.Providence is fun.People go there. New corps go there. Newbs go there.People roam in 30-man gangs.People make up kitchen-sink system defense fleets.People undock with neutrals and reds in local.There are small-scale sov pushes, moon taking, internal fights, betrayals, corp thefts, and so on and on.Provi is the living proof of this concept.
Avatar
This is completely true.So, HED failed not because of the Wrecking Ball but because of processing limitations in the current architecture of EvE.B-R5 was a failure of sorts because Dreads, again, couldn't participate in the fight meaningfully due to the server crying itself to death.So, should these articles be focused on supercaps....or tidi?Again, I keep hammering this point: This is a more complex issue than these articles are letting on.
Avatar
I liked the idea I saw somewhere in these replies of a Kamikaze Frigate. A suicide bomber. I'd open it up to Cruisers and Battleships too, each bringing a bigger bang. You go in, you bump a carrier, you go boom, pod and all. Seems like a good way to introduce a lower SP counter while not creating a situation where the node will end up crashing eventually.I would also suggest a new module that would intercept and "steal" the strands in the spider web. I mean: if a ship positions itself between two enemy ships that are feeding cap and/or repairs to each other, then it steals that link and disables it. I would make the module VERY cap hungry and have it sustain itself off the link it is stealing, barring enough cap to turn it on at the very beginning. I would also go a step further and have it apply to warfare links and fleet boosts so it would be useful in more than just cap warfare.in game design, I don't agree with Nerfs. IMO, it is better to introduce counters to keep a game more "rock, paper, scissors".
Avatar
So Nos?
Avatar
I could have sworn I heard that CCP was developing a Frigate that was going to be used to help counter Caps/Supercaps. Essentially what a well placed Stealth Bomber is to a Battleship. However, now that I'm writing this I think I was high, drunk, stupid or dreaming, or all of the above, but does anyone else recall a Frig in the making to help counter Caps?
Avatar
Band this fool
Avatar
In both fights, subcaps were marginalized to specific roles, typically out of the main fight because they would be useless there. So the issue is still present. It would be nice if Tidi wasn't a factor, if that was the case, subcaps may very well have had a greater impact. However, we can't know if that is the case, as CCP appears to be too inept to be able to support such an engagement.
Avatar
I like all these article you've been spilling out mittens.
Avatar
If the CFC member alliance you were in wasn't using your 30mil SP to neut or void bomb enemy caps, that's their fault.Plenty of alliances in N3 will take your 30mil, especially if you fly the complicated stuff like HICs and Ewar. This is coming from someone with similar SP on the pilot with this name who flies mostly Hictors and webbers.
Avatar
Enough fleets that don't use caps in the CFC....
Avatar
"You have a very valid argument so I'm going to criticise your writing style, or something..."
Avatar
If your intention is to be condescending, then gratz. Well done.Because a low SP frigate running NOS is going to do what exactly to a Capital?
Avatar
This.An example someone else is using in this comment thread is that of a newbie in an interceptor making a 250m Battleship useless. This isn't an accurate portrait of what happens -- more often than not, interceptors die if they get too close to a gathered battleship fleet.The crux is putting new players in the right hull -- not just any subcap hull. The CFC does this to beautiful and vein-popping effect with Celestis fleets, and in a game with sentry assist nerfed to the ground, this is exactly what is needed to prevent a carrier blob from hitting subcaps.
Avatar
It's not a server load issue, if the servers could support 10k pilots, you'd have 10k supers fights.You don't send subcaps into a super fight because it's better to send more supers, given how little effect a subcap can have. When I started playing in nullsec (back when BoB got disbanded), the server could barely handle 1k players in the same system, that doesn't mean we told some people to stand down because they were useless. That's what happens now everytime a supercap fight breaks in, subcaps are told to fuck off somewhere else because you'd have to field thousands of subcaps in order to have any kind of effect.
Avatar
So I guess Provi is the most organised bloc in new eden cause they do almost all of their fighting in subcaps?
Avatar
Dude, everything was "marginalized to specific roles." In wrecking ball, titans ran anti-capital. Supers ran logi. Archons did dps. Welcome to EvE, where mixed fleet concepts have specific roles for each hull. In other fights smaller than B-R where the CFC went up against Wrecking Ball, subcaps still were still "marginalized to specific roles." Oneroises rep. Dominixes dealt dps. Heavy tackle tackled. Hell, we're fighting in Geminate right now, and guess what, my Hictor is being marginalized to bubbling and pointing.My Jeep is being marginalized to carrying my fat arse around over asphalt surfaces.
Avatar
"If your ship can kill my ship, my ship should be able to kill your ship." - Wrong. A battleship can't hit an interceptor (unless it does something very silly like fly straight at it), a logi can't kill anything but it can be of massive strategic value, a command ship can't really damage anything but you wouldn't leave without one, etc etc etc...A super / capital blob can do every single one of the above roles, better, with ridiculous resists, a huge buffer tank, EWAR / bomb immunity, and teleport around the galaxy. If you can't see how that is broken, you're pretty special (and not in the gifted sense).
Avatar
Ad Hominem: the last refuge of those who can't deal with being wrong.
Avatar
"In both fights, subcaps were marginalized to specific roles, typically out of the main fight because they would be useless there."I know this is a double post, but people keep screaming this line without thinking twice about what it means. Subcaps would have been useless in B-R? In a parallel universe where CCP unfucked its game architecture and TiDi wasn't necessary, you bet your butt the CFC would have poured every extra ounce of dps into the system to help push dying PL titans over the edge faster. This statement has no meaning in the context of supercap balance and pertains only to discussions regarding lag.
Avatar
So blap titans were totally balanced, got it.
Avatar
More like, "I am going to write an article where I call those with valid opposition idiots so I can keep my Supercapital Strawman argument narrow and unhindered."This goes both ways.Edit, for clarity: There's more options than just "omg nerf supercaps." Try giving subcaps more anti-XL options, too.
Avatar
Supercapital apologists are basically the global warming denialists of EVE
Avatar
You're right, tracking titans weren't balanced. Blap titans *couldn't* be killed by anything as they could nuke any subcap fleet within range.Mass sentry-assist carriers supported by super logi and anti-dread titans weren't balanced. Take away mass sentry assist and you have taken away the capacity of the fleet to harm subcaps. No longer do we have a tracking titan or aoe doomsday problem: subcaps are safe from the post-assist-nerf Wrecking Ball.
Avatar
You must design mechanics that will actually work within the physical constraints of the game. If CCP is not willing or able to improve the performance of the game, then balancing needs to occur if it becomes impossible to field a reasonable counter. These are not mutually exclusive issues.And the majority of subcaps were useless in the main fight as they couldn't function under that deal of server load. You suggest Tornados and void bombs as a viable counter earlier, and they quite possibly could be, but under the current state of affairs they couldn't be fielded reliably in such a large fight.
Avatar
People constantly railing on issues that have been largely fixed are the modern members of the Nation of Islam.
Avatar
Void bombs: nope. Void bombs will blow themselves up in too high a volley, and cap chains ensure that reps won't be broken. Next to zero effect. It's been mathed many times before.Heavy Neuts: requires sustained critical numbers, which is pretty much unsustainable when you're pitting battleships versus capitals. Useful in small engagements, but good luck in a big fight.Hictors: really, lowsec only. doesn't impact the usefulness of enemy ships, just makes it harder to run. Also not a newbie friendly ship.Dictors: same as hictors, with the added benefit of being even easier to wipe off the field. Almost as newbie-unfriendlyArtyNados: Enjoy your infinity attrition and also your bombs. The closest thing to newbie-friendly on this list. Plus, more DPS really isn't that much of an effect - you're throwing a match on the raging inferno that is sieged dread DPS.The point stands that subcaps are largely irrelevant when it comes to a major capital battle, and becoming more irrelevant with every new cap pilot.
Avatar
I found this article to be much better than Mittens last attempt, but it is still largely ignoring that pink elephant in the room (illustrated in June Ting's article). In order to get rid of high-stakes capital battles you need to, first, restore subcapital balance and ensure high-stakes subcapital battles. That's how you find some sort of PCG between the blocks, rather than blatantly comming across as lobbying for your own block and powerbase - while meeting opposition to scoff at in the next piece. It is also how you take a more responsible position by showing an understanding of how high-stakes battles are important for the game (the, game - in best Darius-P sentiment).The current subcapital balance ensures no high-stakes battles, because that proverbial Rifter have been made too good compared to the whatever expensive-ammunition slinging subcapital it faced in 2005. That's where you start, not with a lobby campaign against your ideological opponent's powerbase.
Avatar
I don't know why you've put "rant on and on" in quotes as though to imply that text was in one of my posts. It isn't. A quick search of the page indicates that the word "rant" is only found in your post. Posting in a hostile environment with what is apparently a minority opinion isn't helped by attacking someone with accusations of "ranting." I don't do that."Ranting" is not what is being done here. The Mittani isn't really repeating the same thing over and over -- he's introducing new material with each column and it's good stuff. It's just an incomplete picture of the issues facing nullsec balance each time.
Avatar
Are you mentally incompetent?
Avatar
Wait, is this a serious reply or did I get caught in an elaborate troll?
Avatar
"Just don't let them track stuff smaller than capitals"Sorry, now that omnidirectional tracking links apply to fighters, carriers can chew up cruisers faster than before.
Avatar
What is better for Eve Online, a battle with 1000 subcapitals murdering one another, or a battle with 1000 capitals doing the same? Apologists or the ignorant will say that these fights are of equal value, but the cold business reality is that large subcapital engagements are superior because they are inclusive to newer players and drive retention.#HOLYSHITSOMEONEGETSIT
Avatar
It depends on how it is done. It needs to be a module that would fit on existing hulls so that it wouldn't be easy to sort them out and alpha them. It needs to be a one shot weapon that isn't a cap alpha, say a 100k volley, radius of 1.5k and a range of 1k. Basically two shots from a dread and you don't walk away from it. Not usable in hisec obviously. It gives a new player a reason to learn to risk their ship, actually learn to pilot ships instead of just F1 and don't lemming, and give a meaningful participation in large fights. The sentry blob has to choose between spending their time targeting every little ship on the field, getting rid of the traditional DPS, or breaking logi support. It also ends the old days of DPS anchoring in a big orgy around one ship, you will have to orbit at 2k or so to mitigate to damage risk.
Avatar
You cannot tell with him. Really. The border the line so perfectly its just impossible. I swear his posts are art and in fifty years will be printed on canvass and hung on the wall in the Internets Museum.
Avatar
You still don't adress why your play style of 1000nerds is better and should take precedence over those parties that perfer less, higher skilled play style
Avatar
Why does it always have to boil down to spamming a single ship in massive amounts. Why can't we have a game with real on the fly strategic game play? Think of an armed force, its not 100 rocket troopers, its a balance of different units working collectively.I want a large fleet to require more than 50/50 dps and logi. A fight should not be won or lost on the undock command. Its like we are in the matrix, the battle is already won or lost we are there to experience why.Would it not be more engaging to NOT know if your going to win or lose a fight prior to entering it? I believe META is causing the vast majority of the issues we now face. Not power projection or apex forces, EvE lacks the real world variables that could cause a battle to be won or lost on the field which gives far too much power to the intelligence/infiltration aspects of the game.We field doctrines that are put together months in advance,To plan to attack enemies weeks in advance,Put form-ups up Days ahead of the ops,...wtf how do they know our plans!
Avatar
Creating a subcap counter to supers would constitute a nerf to supers, wouldn't it?
Avatar
All the more reason for CCP to pay him. ;)
Avatar
100 ISK if you can explain to me why flying a super is "higher skilled play" than flying a dictor.
Avatar
Because it's simpler and safer, so you can play multiple accounts at the same time?/not being serious
Avatar
That depends on the frame of reference, I guess. Creating modules that bite XL hulls harder would be providing subcaps with more power -- a buff -- where the capabilities of supers (capacity to hit structures and caps, jump drives, etc) would remain the same.I don't think a buff to one side of the equation is necessairily a nerf to others. Look at the excellent tiericide work Fozzie ran on cruiser hulls. The buffs to the underused cruiser class didn't nerf frigates and BS per se (though, lol, battlecruisers).
Avatar
I don't think we're actually disagreeing on substance (esp. on battlecruisers; well done). It's mostly semantics.
Avatar
What about a cruiser hull that could fit citadel torp launchers? In a similar way to how the stealth bomber can fit regular torps, but without the stealth. A gang of those trying to make it through the fighter waves would be a sight to see...
Avatar
It might be fun to disagree on substances sometime. If you're ever in the Atlanta area, I'd gladly buy you a beer.
Avatar
Challenge accepted. (òÓ,)
Avatar
How to fix Supers? Remove EWAR immunity. I should really write an article about this.
Avatar
No, I'm saying that what a subcap brings to a supercap fight is so hilariously marginal that it is of less value than having that pilot log off in order to protect the node.
Avatar
Hrm. Hictors and Dictors: 4 to 6 mos to train. T2 Arty and decent armor skills? Same. As far as the Archons go? No one's arguing they're an Apex Force. To paraphrase someone or another - It's the damned EWAR Immune Supers, stupid.
Avatar
Or you could admit that you've killed eve by allowing sov space to become a huge jerk off between a few coalitions. Its your own doing. If null sov holders would let some smaller entitys in to get a piece of the action there would be more content on a smaller scale.The real problem is the null sov holders don't want to lose any of their profits. Even if it means enriching the game. Every time someone threatens your income stream you drop supers on them and send them back to high sec. What about setting self imposed limits on supercap usage? What about NOT dogpiling into a system and helicopter dicking when a small alliance tries to make a place for themselves.The real problem imho is the map is too small for the range of jump drives. Especially in the days of tidi. The way things are now anyone can get into any fight, anywhere in the entire game. Either we need to limit the rapid deployment capabilities of caps or the map needs to be expanded to limit the projection issue.big.fat.rillos@gmail.com
Avatar
To be fair, the Dominion-induced stagnation is doing at least as much to run Eve into the ground as the state of supercap vs cap vs subcap balance.Both are bad. Both should be fixed. Whether they are both fixed in one package of changes or seperately isn't that important as long as it happens somehow.
Avatar
I'm totally behind you with that one. Options: strengthen the node code, or just remove supers and be done with asking any kind of effort from CCP in the future?
Avatar
But now some of the pilots might actually have to be actively playing the game rather than the whole fleet assigning their drones to one dude and everyone else alt-tabbing to play Chivalry. :( :( :( :( :(
Avatar
Remove cap reps.
Avatar
Most of it has to do with the fact that line damage is best if everything has the same engagement parameters. Meanwhile, things other than line damage are, essentially force multipliers. As force multipliers, you really only need a couple of them. In a 255-pilot fleet, it's not unheard of to have 30% be force multipliers, but that's still about 80 ships. (In fact, it's probably 5 WC link ships, 1 FC command ship, 10 lokis, 10 proteii, maybe 10 Armageddons for neut support, and 30-50 logistics ships. This is just as predictable as the fact that the other 175 being all Megathrons and Apocalypses.) The thing is, the composition of those 80 ships is even more predictable than the Megathrons... it's the same for every choice of line DPS! So, everyone just talks about Megathrons.The reason we go into battles knowing already who won, on the other hand, is because they're set-piece battles. Set-piece battles tend to involve both sides knowing about what's going to be there, on both sides, before it even starts. That makes the end result not terribly surprising. It's not like this is different IRL.
Avatar
Drone-assist didn't make anything possible, it only made it easier. If you think carriers w/sentries can't harm subcaps, I invite you to convince Elo to bring his slippery petes closer than 170km.
Avatar
In the world cup Germany should play 1 legged so that teams like North Korea and Solomon Islands have a chance for the cup. Right?
Avatar
How much sensor strength should they have then?
Avatar
I joined cuz of press about Asakai... and i left null and moved to low cuz of the actual null experience. Cap battles might be better press, but they are not better for new player retention. I was thoroughly disappointed by null sec.
Avatar
Interesting article, but damn... Mittani is really hated on /r/eve. Just look at the comments there o_o
Avatar
So, with three sensor boosters on an All V Archon, a skirmish-linked Pete Railgu takes 6.8 seconds to lock.Do Petes not fight aligned so as to warp out upon yellowboxing?
Avatar
I'll tell you that with doomsdays on the priority queue and frigate guns frequently telling the server 'I'M SHOOTING' only to have the server never actually get that packet (just like every other subcapital module in tidi+soul crushing lag), yes, under those conditions, titan DPS exceeds frigate DPS.
Avatar
They do. They still die if they don't run away fast enough - and they don't always run away fast enough.
Avatar
Link? I don`t want to miss a hating.
Avatar
Thanks for a great read once again, entertaining, and enlightening.
Avatar
Hi Pubbie,Void bombs do 1800 cap drain per bomb (unbuffed)An Aeon has 75000 cap (unbuffed) before rechargeThat means you'd need to land 42 unbuffed bombs on an unbuffed aeon to cap drain it (before it recharges). Except that more than ~8-10 bombs blow the rest up, so you'd have to have at least 5 wings of bombers landing immediately after each other.
Avatar
It's a circle jerk, that's why.
Avatar
Exactly what the article is arguing, thank you.
Avatar
You do realize this post basically invalidates all your others on this topic, right? It's like the penny has just dropped and you've realized 'So, you're saying there is no way for sub-caps to affect supers? That's a bad design, they should make some modules that can.' Yeah, finally!
Avatar
This could be the most excellent Eve article I have ever read. Deniers will deny, but this sucker is spot on.
Avatar
He can't, that's why. They feel superior because they are in a Super. 100 dead supers on zkb proves that supercap owners aren't more intelligent, better at eve, or have a "higher skilled play style"
Avatar
best article I have read from TMC in awhile. Brilliant points raised!
Avatar
None of them unsubbed after they nerfed tracking titans. None of them will unsub when CCP nerfs supers.
Avatar
Not bad Mittens... for a lawyer :)
Avatar
This one sure has a lot more comments, that's for sure.
Avatar
wait...CCP pay mittens....why would they pay him dont they work for him? I assumed him and all his minions were the ones who payed the salaries at ccp.
Avatar
Ermagherd. More Devswarm Federgaytion posting.
Avatar
Pretty much. To paraphrase a quote from The Mittani, "I want to remove supers from the game."That's a hell of a long step from introducing more anti-xl options. I'm proposing that nobody needs to go totally hamfisted and just obliterate supers from the game. There's many other options available.If you're reading into my arguments here as the other side of a binary yes-or-no argument much like these columns, my apologies for being interpretable as such.
Avatar
Pretty much. A comrade set me straight on the failure of normal bombs to scale well to XL targets -- I've posted as much w/ Fearlesslittletoaster elsewhere.
Avatar
Except the article is crying "broken" when my ship kills your ship.I am perfectly fine with the status quo but you and yours seem to (and have always seemed to) screech for nerfs of various sorts against things that hinder your method of conquest in the slightest way.
Avatar
Even as a proud member of MoA and fierce enemy of the CFC, I must commend Mittens and these past few articles. I would rather die to goon battleships than good supers
Avatar
"If your ship can kill my ship, my ship should be able to kill your ship."That's ridiculous.Any ship in EVE can kill any other ship in EVE under ideal circumstances anyway.
Avatar
"I've spent more time trying to convince newbies to play Eve than probably any single staffer in CCP's marketing group." http://bit.ly/WRoDln
Avatar
I tried to napkin math this and ended up with some surprising numbers.Let's say the average Megathron has about 500 (synthetic) dps and the average slowcat Archon has roughly 80% resists across the board. That means that the effective dps will be in the area of 100.Now, one capital remote armor repairer I has a 5 second cycle time and a repair amount of 1500, giving the module a hp/s of 300. So, to break even with the tank of one Archon repairing another with a single module, you need 3 Megathrons. Fair enough. Bring 200 Megathrons and the opposing fleet of archons needs to have 66 remote reps. The convenient way to go here would be to bring 33 Archons with two remote reps each, making the balance of forces 6:1.But what if one side brings 1000 Megathrons? Turns out you "only" need about 166 Archons to hold your own. How about 200 Archons supported by a dozen Aeons (who will normally fit 2-4 reps)? Enjoy your soul crushing lag and sub-10% TiDi as you grapple with 1200+ battleships.If anything, this shows that untriaged capital remote reps scale hilariously in greater numbers.
Avatar
Let Supers taste our Jam, and this whole thing becomes a non-issue.
Avatar
Avatar
err, that's what I'm saying. That ability should be removed. Carriers/Supers shouldn't be able to hit under than class.
Avatar
There is only leeway for a force smaller in numbers to compete with a force with larger numbers and in that regard I could agree with you, in fact I have been in a lot of those fleets that overcame the number disparity. However, there is a point to which tactics no longer effect the outcome of the battle and despite ships and tactics designed to counter the doctrine you are fighting, the sheer number of ships on the field are able to volley anything you field. That point has been reached many times.In the end, Mittani's proposal will not bring about the changes he purports to want. In the end it will be a race for numbers except that, in his iteration, it will just make it harder for entities relying on tactics and firepower to engage. The proposal is perfect for an entity like the CFC wherein their primary tactic of conquest or conflict is to stuff as many people into the system as possible.Decentralizing conflict is really the only answer for how things are now on the scale being discussed. Simply allowing smaller ships to do more damage to the largest of ships is a shallow and poorly thought out idea brought to the masses by a person who really has very little practical experience with the game outside of political conquest.
Avatar
Had to admit. I lolled at this. Sad I'm stuck in Atl for the weekend lets get drunk.
Avatar
I think the point that you are missing is as follows mittens: Lets assume, simply for arguments sake, that the CFC has had a bad run of diplomacy lately. In fact, its so bad that HERO, Provi Block, Legion of Death and what's left of the russians (you really shouldn't have stolen all their vodka), have all decided to kick the CFC out of Querious. Due to Brave Collective's fiendishly effective counter intelligence service and stringent hiring standards you are caught entirely by surprise, only learning of the assault when a dozen systems get reinforced. If both sides restricted themselves to only using subcaps, how many CFC systems would fall? And if the answer is Zero, don't you think that simply fixing Captial and Supercaptial balance is insufficient to lower the high bar of Null?
Avatar
Slow down now, expecting pilots to watch their overviews and respond accordingly, that's just crazytalk.
Avatar
Finally we get to the ACTUAL problem. It's not like having subcap in these big fights are worthless. The problem is the servers and Tidi mean they contribute more to the lag and to modules not working than adding dps to a primary. Fix that an half of the problem with supers goes away.
Avatar
WTB capital bomb launcher + bombs :)
Avatar
Do you realize that right now, CFC's primary tactic is stuffing as many people into SUPER CAPITALS ?Right now, across CFC space, titans and supercarriers are being shat out at a rate that should worry everyone - but look at the comments here : morons who barely read the article are crying about "whaa whaa cfc wants to nerf our precious supers so they can win with shitty low sp ships"This is similar to when mittani was pushing for technetium nerf - making good/logical arguments that are in fact for the good of the game, while idiots were posting shit like "CFC is funding rmt with tech goo - don't read these words because mittani only looks after himself" - this was while CFC was sitting on most of tech AND funding solo machariel reimbursements AND campaigning for tech nerf at the same time.You bring up this point and there's always some idiot posting (in these very comments here by the way) : but you are using these winning strategies yourself, how can you be against them, the only explanation is hypocrisy.
Avatar
Hey did you read the article that talks how smaller/less powerful entities should have a chance against big entities like the big established blocks which are currently fielding massive super cap fleets?You can find this article at the top of this page.I hope this helps.
Avatar
I am going to assign all my posting to powersv2 - this is clear proof of my superior posting style. So every time he posts, just remember that ok ?
Avatar
A temporary band aid at best. supercarriers don't need to target in order to apply dps - and the inability to remote rep will just move the fitting strategies towards self-reps and even stronger(!) buffers.But lets say that though some stroke of luck no one figures out decent fleet comp/fit that relies on self-reps and buffer (or it's just very ineffective)You know what you are left with ?Huge blobs that STILL apply same dps as before, still take ages to kill, still have all the problems outlined in this article. Only difference is that while big blocks can afford to lose lots of them on regular basis - the smaller entities are now even more scared of using them than they are already because they will die easier.There won't be any less of them in game - right now supers are entering the game faster than they are being destroyed. Not slightly, by a lot too. Just making supers die easier is not enough - hence, your solution, while well meaning, is at best a temporary band aid.
Avatar
goonies are in rifters erm battleships maybe.
Avatar
Hey, is there anything they haven't promised yet ?
Avatar
Maybe that's a problem ? The bitter vets who have done it all are not quitting. Maybe they should be ? Maybe that's what the game needs: fresh newbies who are somewhere between incompetent and naive, plowing forward, re-discovering the magic, the metas, etc going "wowowow guys we're gonna have a dedicated finance team, and hey, how about, ok this will be really new and amazing, counter-intel guys?!?!?!!" and so on.
Avatar
I realize that eating the paste that you used to glue your tinfoil hat makes it hard to think logically but just try this:Imagine that the issues that this article is talking about are actually fixed and CCP doesn't fuck it up like it usually does. In this imaginary dream scenario, the shitty band of shitty shitlords that you are/were a part of (I don't even know, just guessing here) actually has a better chance to stand up against 'teh evil goonies' than it does right now.How close to your reaction is "but but there must be some hidden catch, I am just too busy to find it, but I bet this is a cleverly hidden trap, lemartini would never ask for super nerfs to his own super power so that his large block could be attacked by smaller group, it has gotta be there, I know it has to be there"
Avatar
Yeah, more newer players (some of them joining CFC, others not) entering the game is a terrible idea and only serves the CFC. You have spotted lemartinis hidden plan! How will you apply your powers of deduction next ?
Avatar
The accumulated filth of all their risk aversion and lack of high-loss capital fights will foam up about their waists and all the players and ccp will look up and shout "FC more capital OPS"... and DBRB will whisper "no."
Avatar
No, but I would love some of what you are smoking cause even sober that's not the worst idea of all time.
Avatar
CCP needs to give us subcap hulls specifically designed to combat supers. <-- this... Maybe bombers with capital bombs, Sigradius requirement 3km+? 100,000 damage and 90km arear of effect? :) that kinda makes all carrier blobs useless instantley.
Avatar
How about a new part of space that is closed to capitals - due to temporal instability, unable to support cynos, this could be of comparable value to sov but accessible by new alliances, it would have to be a new tier between lo sec and null to make sense, this could then be a home to/nursery for future null sov alliances or members, alongside some of the other rebalancing suggestions
Avatar
The game turned sour for me as soon as "capitals" were brought into the game.
Avatar
T3 Battleships with 2 or 3 Capital Gun/Missile Slots. Small Signatures and relatively fast... Bonuses to Range and Micro jump drives and tracking PENALTIES.
Avatar
"Human are the sand in the sandbox"get your hand out of your fucking ass
Avatar
come to w space, the limited amount of mass and players means we have been working on concepts of how to break cap fleets with the smallest numbers of players possible. a favourite is Bahlgorns. or Armageddon's being fed cap to run a full rack of heavy nuets. ecm and damps being piled onto logistics,supers can be dealt too, you need to murderate there fighters/drones with bombs/ smart bombing battle ships, then they can be on grid but lack any effective dps and thus made irrelevant.
Avatar
Ahh, I can see where you're* confused. The phrase may not have been heard much in your* circles, but it's been used regularly for millennia by people who care about sound reasoning and critical thinking.
Avatar
Apart from the slight problem that the wrecking ball can be deployed with 0 subcap support, as that's what it was designed to do.So you turn up with your subcaps, deploy those ships, and then they all die horribly anyway.
Avatar
What you said doesn't even make sense. When you remove the force multipliers small groups have against large groups (tracking titans, drone assign, super carriers, whatever), then you reduce nullsec warfare to a numbers game, which is what it is right now. If you think that by going down the path of removing every powerful ship and tactic from the game in an effort to make things more 'fair' will help anyone bu the largest groups, then I have a bridge to sell you.Right now the CFC are unbeatable in a war scenario. Cry underdog as long as you like, stats don't lie. CFC 4 Elite PVP 0. Every successful tactic Elite PVP employs against the CFC in a war footing gets nerfed. And now your leadership reminisces about the last good war 5 year ago while the major content providers in the game go play something else. Goon leadership are as much to blame about the state of null as CCP, because they've purposely gamed this way for the last 3-4 years and been the primary driver of the meta. Lie in that bed.
Avatar
Remove all logi from the game. Solved.
Avatar
EVE is an MMO... Star Citizen is a SP game with a MP component.
Avatar
If only there were ways to play EVE that didn't involved sovnull warfare....I haz an idea. Since even Mitten's proposals would keep nullsec stagnant, let's just turn all sovspace into npc null. Solved.
Avatar
New players aren't kept away from the game by the stats on the Aeon's Show Info tab, so this entire discussion is preposterous. He's effectively saying "nerf supers... for the children." Most new players won't even see a super for years.
Avatar
All supers should have a rifter-sized exhaust port leading directly to the main reactor.
Avatar
Ahhhh, I can see by your failed assumptions and appeal to ignorance that you have tried to extrapolate more information about the posters, such as myself, than could possibly be taken from such a small sample. That, and your not-to-subtle ad hominem attack lead me to believe that maybe you don't care as much about critical thinking as you claim to.
Avatar
The barrier to entry into nullsec by smaller groups is the fact that they are small, while the coalitions are big.
Avatar
Exactly. Null is way too self-important. If we're worried about the new player experience we should be discussing hisec.
Avatar
I want kamikaze for suicide ganking.
Avatar
We need more studies before we can disprove a link between reading The Mittani and becoming gay.
Avatar
Why not remove EWAR completely?
Avatar
Whinefleet - the eternal CFC sovwar doctrine.
Avatar
You are right, they won't see one for years...unless they try to join one of these big battles that probably drew them into the game. Or they try to get their friends into nullsec or maybe even roam lowsec. Actually, they should probably just stay in highsec and mine/mission - that excitement will surely drive player retention!
Avatar
Because hisec and sovvnull are the only places in EVE. This is preposterous. If we stand for the principle that every ship in the game should matter in every esoteric situation, then frigates should be effective cargo haulers, titans should be good at mining, and 3-day old toons should be able to group up and kill mothership incursions._There is a time and a place for every ship. This is not a revelation. For sov warfare, capitals are it.
Avatar
Look at you thinking that "small groups" are the ones fielding supers against the overwhelimg blob of CFC's low sp ships.You're so stuck in some bizarre land of your own imagination that you fail to ralise that what this article is asking for is for non-bloc force to have some sort of ability to put CFC in danger. In your imagination this article is asking for help to fight n3pl.You seem to think that n3pl is some sort of small band of honorable but very skilled and powerful space pilots whose small fleets of super difficult to fly ships are just waiting for the right moment to attack the heart of the goon empire and using skill and not brute force of numbers, defeat them.It's actually funny. N3PL is in similar boat to cfc in many regards. Stagnation hurts them also - and, just like CFC, for a variety of reasons which we might not agree with but are nevertheless valid for them, they will not fight each other.That's why the game needs something that will let new (as in low sp, not part of np3pl/cfc) forces to take on the established forces with at least 1% chance of victory instead of the current status of 0% chance of victory.
Avatar
So your reason for not removing the special ability that makes supercapitals largely immune to any effective counter by subcapitals is... to give everyone that same immunity? Brilliant.You know 'EWAR' includes things like Warp Scramblers, right?
Avatar
Actually, if we're worried about the new player experience, we should discuss the new player experience.
Avatar
Yes, because the large battles that CCP uses for marketing fodder should be viewed as 'esoteric' situations.We get it: anything that might force you to actually play the game, instead of sitting in an untouchable ball of chickenshit is bad.
Avatar
When you remove the force multipliers small groups have against large groups (tracking titans, drone assign, super carriers, whatever), then you reduce nullsec warfare to a numbers game, which is what it is right now.You mean the same force multipliers the large groups use, far more effectively, against the small groups? Any PvP that does not artificially cap the number of participants on a side will always be a numbers game. Period. I refer once again to the wisdom of the guru Ron White:"I didn't know how many of them it was gonna take to kick my ass... but I knew how many they were gonna use."
Avatar
Done some wh with an armageddon recently. Y'all are freaking intense.That said, the fights in Geminate have been amazing so far. Never much more than 300 pilots, tons of small players involved, much larger emphasis on individuals in crucial tackle or logi roles....Stagnation nothing; these are very fun times to be playing EvE.
Avatar
B-R was the most fun I've ever had in a video game. I am a frigate pilot.On top of that, when I first started playing I had a ton of fun flying a Rifter with a prototype cloaking device In a war between RvB and Eve Uni. That was a month into the game.There are tons of ways low SP players can have fun and make a serious contribution to PvP corps. Perhaps the CFC should spend more time thinking about ways new players can have fun and contribute rather than worrying about getting them into getting them into a Megathron.
Avatar
N3 is largely a defensive coalition, CFC are largely the agressors. They're two different beasts, and you can see that when guys like NC. and PL reset coalition members in peacetime. This was more gratuitous around the fountain war, with even NC. resetting and actively hunting former coalition members capitals in between wars. Its happening less now, though, because with the CFC absorbing everything else, its forced N3 to do the same to have any chance of competing.Its the CFC driving this meta. A boot in every hangar back in 2012.. Handing out dreads. Massive super and capital building programs. Huge, permanently blue coalitions. Jabberlon5. If it was up to Vince Draken and Grath Teklin, there wouldn't be an N3, because there'd be no need. But Mittens has consistently and very successfully pushed and grown his coalition to the logical conclusion, and for anyone to fight it and attempt to win or even put up a reasonable showing, they have to blue up literally every motherfucker they can find.The CFC has been the consistent driver to where we are now for the last 3 years or more. No one else has wanted to go this way, but when presented with an aggressive, expansionist and homogenous bloc, the only defense is to blob and cap up.And now Mittens wants to cry about it an blame CCP. Goons pride themselves on breaking the game, so listening to him and his complaining now that they broke it is some nice irony.
Avatar
Suddenly the dumped idea of putting Dreadnought guns on a Battleship hull doesnt seem so bad................
Avatar
We need a deployable remote repair jammer and sentry drones need a serious nerf or a counter as well. I don't know how fozzie can watch the new eden where every match has sentry ships either banned or used, and then pretend it is fine. On the right ships sentry drones just do too much dmg, at too great a distance, with far too much dmg application. Either nerf these things or produce a proper counter to them. Maybe a ship that puts out a repair jamming field, or drops a repair jamming bubble. Make a ship that jams the communication from ships to drones. You know as in balance the game.
Avatar
It's funny how you illustrate two other examples of broken balance in order to highlight what you consider a problem (which may possibly be a problem, but is undoubtedly tied to the other two issues you fail to identify as issues).The improvement made to ships - like the Crucifier when in a setting of overwhelming numbers - is yet another of CCP's fuck-ups. In a smaller setting a Crucifier will hardly ever make a 250m Battleship completely useless. It may impact the fight, but not render useless. As scale goes up and redundance on Battleships drop though, the "Crucifier" could possibly make said Battleship completely useless rather than just having an impact upon it. Rendering your opponent completely useless is hardly the equivalent of allowing you to have an impact. See the problem?The same goes for Bombers. Prior to the utterly ridiculous change to uncloaking mechanics, connecting with perfect bomb waves was an art-form that required a good amount of organisation and execution. Today, any chimp can fling a banana-bomb after a simple fleet-warp, which has made the once nightmarish task of organising multiple waves the norm, and with that norm the ability to bomb much larger fleets and much larger ships with relative ease - not to mention other things that the simplistic coordination required brought with it, like IS-boxing waves.Bombers, like many other things in EVE, used to have a soft balance where the reward of using more Bomb(er)s was subject to increased risk and strain. Now it's simplistic and bringing superfluous amounts even of Bombers has little to no downside anymore. More is arbitrarily better.
Avatar
Someone always invents w-space in these discussions.
Avatar
Compared to the full subscriber base of eve, they are a non-event. This is even more true if the population of subscribers is rarified to the new players this article laughably claims to support.
Avatar
This is retarded. You are basically letting the perfect (perfect play conditions--i.e. no TiDi) be an argument against something good.
Avatar
This is happening tonight with a bunch of other MV dudes. Check yer evemail.
Avatar
Well, let's look at examples that stressed the server as hard as HED and B-R but didn't involve capitals. J5A- in Fountain, the first fight where NC, PL, and BL showed up to brawl (and Test's SilentMajority blue-bombed more than half of an entire PL dominix fleet), comes immediately to mind. There were insane numbers of subcaps and drones out brawling each other. Just like HED and B-R, session changes were choking the server out; the fight transitioned from J5A- over to an hours-long catfight on the gate and station in B-D with many pilots in my Apoc fleet taking over an hour and a half to load grid.Removing supercarriers from the game doesn't change the fact that large fights -- particularly those with lots of session changes and thus craploads of extra network traffic -- cause the server to act drunk.If we talk just about what went wrong with server performance at HED, B-R, and J5A/B-D, we find that supercarreirs are not germane to the core issue at hand. Replace supers with any other droneboat and the fights are just as bad -- as we saw in J5A. Similarly, pile on a ton of people jumping through gates or cynos and the situation only gets worse.Edit: Also, don't just call people retarded with a sentence or two and an anonymous account. This is the 21st century, and we aren't 14 year olds.
Avatar
I never check the author of an article before I read it, probably should I know. When I finished this article I was completely impressed by it. Well Done Sir.
Avatar
How about: instead of attaching a cool-down timer to a jumping ship, attach it to the system being jumped into?Would that limit the number of capitals-and-up in any one system, to the point where subcaps would have a chance?I suppose undocking a cap-and-up would have to count as a jump-in, too.
Avatar
Torpedo Boats!

You can't take a swing at Apex Forces, supercapitals, or the power projection controversy without setting off a firestorm. The most common responses to my previous article were either lazy accusations of self-interest - that the CFC is somehow under a threat right now, and that thus I attack the carrier/supercarrier Apex Force meta to defend my space tribe, when in reality our primary defensive fleet is also a big fat blob of carriers - or to trot out the infamous "1000 Megathrons" soundbite: 

"waaah, I want n+1 supers to be replaced by n+1 megathrons" What's the counter to a mega fleet? More megas?

Let's drill down on this. Is the CFC's ability to spew out massive amounts of subcapitals itself an Apex Force? Why should we privilege subcapitals as somehow better than capitals and supercapitals from a gameplay perspective?

Spoiler: Not only is "1000 Megathrons" a myth, there are a host of very good reasons why everyone should favor the ability of subcapitals to impact capitals and supercapitals, and the fact that they can't currently is a huge problem for CCP. 

THE NECESSARY SUPREMACY OF SUBCAPITAL SHIPS

One of the unique draws of Eve Online used to be summed up in an old Goonswarm recruitment poster from 2005:

This was from a world when every Rifter actually counted. In a gaming space where every other MMO requires a player to grind through endless levels to reach the endgame, Eve Online's unique draw was once that a new player could jump into the game and have an impact on the galaxy three hours in. In marketing presentations at Fanfest, CCP held up our classic 'Every Ship Counts' poster as an example of the draw of New Eden. 

This was before the rise of the subcap-immune Apex Force, before a B-R5 where the winning side intentionally kept its subcapital fleets out of the headline battle because they contributed nothing to the event besides lag. 

CCP and the playerbase both must remember the necessary primacy of the subcapital ship, or watch helplessly as the game slides into stagnation. 

PISSING AWAY THE UNIQUE SELLING POINT

I've spent more time trying to convince newbies to play Eve than probably any single staffer in CCP's marketing group. Every year since 2005 Goonswarm has run newbie drives, convincing our internet tribe from SomethingAwful to dip their toes in the toxic waters of New Eden. The absolute best selling point - and the most unique selling point, distinguishing Eve Online from literally every other MMORPG on the market - was the fact that there was no grind and that a new player could immediately enjoy the endgame. 

Now, it is true that technically speaking a clever newbie who is tutored in the black arts can come to New Eden, find and scam a mark out of a supercapital's worth of isk, turn around and buy a new character with their winnings and jump into the endgame that way, the bloody-handed shortcut to Jump Drive Calibration 5. But true newbies spend the first few weeks being confused by the UI and bumping into things hilariously, calling rats on gates as hostiles, and generally being cute. Until the rise of the Apex Force, those cute newbies could also ruin the day of a hubris-addicted veteran player and make an impact. 

This is why subcapital ships with a low barrier of entry must always be in the mind of the designers, investors, and the playerbase as a whole. The moment you remove the ability of a confused new player in a Rifter to impact a setpiece battle, you have removed Eve Online's only real unique selling point in an extraordinarily crowded market - and that happened more than a year ago. 

Barriers to Entry: THE ENDGAME GRIND

What is better for Eve Online, a battle with 1000 subcapitals murdering one another, or a battle with 1000 capitals doing the same? Apologists or the ignorant will say that these fights are of equal value, but the cold business reality is that large subcapital engagements are superior because they are inclusive to newer players and drive retention. 

A new player in the pre-Apex Force meta could make an impact at a number of levels on any engagement. The counter to a Megathron is to shoot it, to bomb it, to apply various flavors of Ewar to it, to jam out its logistics support, etc. A single confused newbie in an Arbitrator can make a strong negative impact on three Megathrons in a fleet fight, to say nothing of a Celestis with dampeners. 

In the Apex Force meta, newbies are kept out of big fights to keep TiDi down so the players who have 1.5+ years of training into capitals and supercapitals can have their high-stakes slapfight. A new player in B-R5 can do... what, exactly? He cannot provide ewar support as supercapitals are immune to ewar. Tackling is right out. Out of control sentry drones and ewar-immune spider-tanking supercarriers ensure he cannot make an impact until he has reached the endgame and acquired a capital or supercapital ship of his own - but meanwhile he can have his ship destroyed by a sentry carrier briefly glancing at him. 

When examining a big blob of subcapital ships - or a balanced capital class, such as dreadnoughts, which have both powers and vulnerabilities - there are many things which can impact that force with a low barrier of entry. When examining an Apex Force, there is no counter to it besides another Apex Force with a ludicrously high barrier of entry.

In short: level up to 90 and do your Heroics before you can join our ~Elite Raiding Guild~ if you want to make a difference in Eve Online 2014, nub

TEN HEADS ARE BETTER THAN ONE

Another key question: What is superior for Eve, ten humans playing and paying for one account each, or one human paying for ten accounts himself? In terms of the bottom line, the ten newbies or one veteran player generate the same revenue for CCP, yet the reality is that more unique humans playing Eve is vastly superior for the game.

Humans are the sand in the sandbox; the more unique humans involved in a setpiece battle, the more viral the experience. At this point, word of mouth from players convincing their friends to join Eve is likely the most effective way of acquiring and retaining new customers that CCP has available. 

So when we examine a series of balance decisions which allows only players who have ascended a very high barrier of entry to participate in a battle, a battle in which only other endgame veterans can make an impact, who walks away from the battle with an experience worth communicating to potential new players? In B-R5 there was a tremendous amount of ill-will from the subcapital pilots who were kept out of that fight. The massive boost in player numbers after B-R5 has melted away to almost nothing - why? Because in the world of Apex Forces, every ship no longer counts, and other MMOs offer much more fun along the way as you grind your miserable path to the 'endgame'. 

6VDT WAS A FAKE

I try to not roll my eyes whenever someone speaks about 6VDT with a straight face. The fight was a fake, the space-battle equivalent of a Potemkin village, not even an accident like B-R5 or Asakai - it was a planned public suicide by TEST. The fight was scheduled after the Fountain War had already been lost; the CFC had swept much of the region already and reached 6VDT in mop-up mode. It wasn't even a real staging system, as TEST had evacuated to lowsec at the start of the war months previously. Even so, the leadership of TEST announced that they would have an epic last stand in that system, giving everyone more than 48 hours to prepare. With the CFC at its peak and hungering for killmails and a weekend Date Certain, both EU and US players could join with no risk of blueballs - it ended up being more like an afterparty or a victory lap than a 'real' battle, which is why no real forces of note were risked by the TEST/N3 side in terms of capitals.  

Despite this, 6VDT is trotted out as an example of the supposedly unstoppable 1000 Megathron CFC war machine. There have been innumerable bloc wars involving the CFC; we have never fielded 1000 Megathrons except for in 6VDT. We probably couldn't field 1000 Megathrons even if someone tried to invade us, because it requires a weekend timer, an egregiously annoying enemy, and all timezones to show up; not to mention 9+ fleet commanders and a staggeringly complex level of coordination. 

Do you know how hard it is to whip 2200 humans into fleets, organize and coordinate them, point them at an objective and get them moving and working together within half an hour? I do. It's a hell of a lot easier to run a carrier blob, which is what the CFC actually defends our space with, just like our colleagues in N3/PL.

Megathrons vs Wrecking Balls: Will The REAL APEX PLEASE STAND UP

The real Apex Forces of the blocs are their supercapital and carrier fleets, but critics have also suggested that "1000 Megathrons" are the equivalent of the Wrecking Ball,  an actual Apex Force. 

In the Halloween War, carrier blobs with supercarrier support were fielded by N3/PL every single day across multiple timezones for the entire course of the war. In some cases mere carrier fleets were enough; while they didn't always have the supercarriers on the field, they were available to come in should any resistance pop up. Here's an Apex Force used every day relying on perhaps one hundred and fifty human beings, much less in practice given the prevalence of multiboxing in a capital: as capitals do not maneuver much, it is quite easy to multibox them compared to fleet subcapitals. 

On one occasion after the Fountain War, the CFC assembled 1000 Megathrons for a fight which was decided before the first shot was fired. The strategic impact of this assemblage was nil, as Fountain was already won. No one has since assembled 1000 Megathrons, and in practice the massed subcaps approach failed utterly in the Halloween War to make any impact on an actual Apex Force, to the final iteration of 'just keep the subcaps out so the endgame players can fight' in BR-5. 

Meanwhile, subcapital fleets get hosed on a daily basis across Eve. They can be bombed, they get split up, they get smartbombed to death, they get ewarred into uselessness, and generally create both killmails and lossmails constantly. This one time in Immensea - in B-R5 - a real Apex Force produced lossmails instead of killmails. One time in Fountain TEST started losing a pile of carriers, but the servers went down so there were only 30-odd lossmails produced. I suppose a few slowcats have been killed here and there, but the idea of comparing a teleporting carrier/supercarrier group which requires no subcapital support to "a bunch of subcaps flying under one flag" is a laughable argument, especially since the latter has proven unable to impact the former in practice. 

I expect a bunch of screeching outrage from the entitled elite raiding guild crew, offended at the idea of filthy casuals and newbies once more being able to impact their expensive endgame toys, but that's absolutely key if CCP wishes to recapture what was once Eve Online's unique selling point.