On Killing

Avatar
It's just not true factually, studies have proven one thing, other studies have proven other things. Violence in the developed world is dropping precipitously if you look at the long term trends.
Avatar
"our own instinctual inhibitions toward killing members of our own species"The last few hundred centuries of humans gleefully butchering each other says you're a fuckwit.
Avatar
A little melodramatic, but I only wish I could write half as well as you.
Avatar
Excellent read.
Avatar
It's a game for christ's sake. Dave Grossman should chill the fuck out and do something useful with his life instead of wasting trees writing garbage.
Avatar
I thought we were done with Dave Grossman :| If you're interested in psychology and warfare, skip this article and read this one: http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/... It'll make you think, unlike this article.
Avatar
Actually On Killing and On Combat are both very good books I read in 2006 prior to first combat tour, That Being said eve is just a game and books pertaining to actual combat or killing of a once living person has no place as the two are in no way the same.
Avatar
"Extensive research has determined that violence in media and interactive video games is a serious contributing factor to violence in society."it's true, video games were the cause behind the WW2 and Mao's Cultural RevolutionPS: Shut the fuck up idiot
Avatar
That was a very good read. Thank you for the link. I've always had some issues with Grossman's theories, but lacked the necessary background in the appropriate fields to really assemble a sound argument.The article here, on the other hand, is less than impressive.
Avatar
I got my start as a psycho killer playing Duck Hunt.
Avatar
Is this related to Konrad Lorenz's book, or did he just borrow the title?
Avatar
Eh, there has been a lot of criticism of Grossman: http://www.journal.forces.gc.c... for an example.
Avatar
Agreed! Perhaps next we should all consult NASA research into the effect of artificial gravity on the body and plan our game to so as to minimize its impact on us.
Avatar
You know what? I don't have to devalue other human beings to beat them in a game. And I neither have to hate them. Cause... well... it's part of the rules in EVE that you can do it. Compare it to simpler games. Do you need hate as an incentive to win Tic-Tac-Toe? To win Chess? I even play games with friends and I don't have to deny them their humanity, when I push their robots into a hole in Robo Rally, not because I have any great gain but because it's funny.There are probably quite a few things that you can transfer from the world to EVE and vice versa. But regardless how often CCP states that EVE is real, it stays a game. Unless someone decides to leave the confines of the game and pushes into real world like Mittani did on Fanfest.
Avatar
I have to admit, whenever I drive past a slope-backed truck parked at the side of the road, I have an overwhelming urge to violently accelerate towards it... Thanks Grand Theft Auto.
Avatar
Maybe you should read the article before coming to a conclusion?
Avatar
I hated this book. Poor writing, no focus, disjointed.
Avatar
That dog. His mockery. The shame. It never stops.
Avatar
I would hazard a guess that it contributes greatly to spree-style "look-at-me" killings. These are killings for gratification, for attention. I believe there are certain people who can't separate reality from fantasy and when desensitized by media violence, find it much easier to perform these acts.
Avatar
Killing someone is surprisingly easy, especially when they are shooting at you or the people around you. What is difficult is when you see the body of the man you kill and wonder where his mother is and what she is doing right now. Later on as you're spending Thanksgiving with your family you don't care as much.
Avatar
http://phys.org/news196342222...."Why chimpanzees attack and kill each other"Hilariously, the chimp expert's name is 'John Mitani'So yeah we've probably been killing each other before we learned how to use stone tools, much less developed video games.Spree killers aren't really related to mass media only in that mass media is a quick way of achieving their twisted desires for self-esteem through.
Avatar
Sure, but ponder for a moment the below 2 scenarios:In the first, my fleet encounters a random enemy fleet during a roam, and through whatever means, we manage to decisively defeat them. My fleetm8s then proceed to insult and berate the losers in local and open up pvt convos to tell them how fail they are and how sweet their sister's... u get the drift.In the second, the same exact skirmish takes place, but instead, my fleetm8s give "gf o/"s in local and say stuff like "unlucky" or "c u round" or other such respectful banter.In the first, my fleet m8s may well have created a hatred in our vanquished enemy which is capable of fueling and motivating them to enact vengeance upon us to a degree that is highly undesirable. Stuff like this can well be the catalyst for the crazy types who will spend years infiltrating your organisation and are willing to go to any lengths to ensure that they can watch you die in a horrible ball of fire.On the flipside, in the second, a healthy and respectful rivalry may develop, which may either to continue to foster good fights, or perhaps even lead to a more mutually cooperative relationship based on mutual-respect etc.I'm not saying its necessarily desirable or even possible to attempt to turn every enemy into a friend, but I've seen the results of many an unwarranted tirade of insults come back to bite people on the ass."Atrocity not only empowers perpetrators but also the survivors."
Avatar
I think "e-bushido" as described in this article, is the most advanced warrior ethos for any long lasting campaign of destruction, which also have the potential to absorb the opponents into our side. Instead of a blunt force weapon, the warriors of the organization become sharp swords, who effectively cut through their enemy force and his's will to fight, purifying them. ;) Even though this requires discipline, as long as the leaders assume such a posture, the organization might still benefit as a whole...
Avatar
I liked this one and the one linked by hyena
Avatar
Granies pushing prams.

Eve Online appears to be a part of the problem. Extensive research has determined that violence in media and interactive video games is a serious contributing factor to violence in society. By inoculating the mind against our own instinctual inhibitions toward killing members of our own species, those who become conditioned to habitual virtual violence become more greatly predisposed to actual violence. Far from a reactionary screed against video game violence, 'On Killing' by Dave Grossman presents an essential and thorough view of the habits, actions and reactions of killing on the battlefield.

Though a virtual environment filled with immortal space clones, Eve Online can be a useful microcosm for the psychological study of death and dying. Conversely, such studies can be useful to the thoughtful Eve player in understanding the patterns of reaction in those on the receiving end of our space lasers and internet missiles. Mr. Grossman creates a model for understanding the complex processes involved in psychological casualties in war, beginning with what it takes to kill another human being and moving methodically toward the effects of rationalizing one’s killing - and also the failure to rationalize.

Players in Eve do not actually kill one another, of course. When someone’s spaceship is blown up and his life pod is destroyed, a clone is activated and the player continues. However, the losses are very real. The material losses are one factor in loss, but certainly not the only one. Failure of strategic objectives and the feelings of letting down one’s fellows can be devastating stressors, and causes of stress disorders well above and beyond the fear of death. “[E]ven in the face of a society and culture that tell the soldiers that selfish fear of death and injury should be their primary concern, it is instead the fear of not being able to meet the terrible obligations of combat that weighs most heavily on the minds of combat soldiers.” Fear of failure is at least as powerful as fear of death in war, and far more so in Eve due to the transitory nature of death.

Mitigating factors to killing inhibitions are explored in great depth. Demands of authority figures, absolution by one’s peers, the predisposition of the killer, and the attractiveness of the victim are explored in great detail. Many of these also factor into rationalizations of killing after the fact. A killer can diffuse responsibility to one’s leaders, one’s peers, and also the victim. Nevertheless, guilt and blame cannot always be effectively deflected elsewhere. With proper mental inoculation, however, mitigation can increase.

“Unlike the victims of aerial bombing, the victims of these [Nazi death] camps had to look their sadistic killers in the face and know that another human being denied their humanity and hated them enough to personally slaughter them, their families, and their race as though they were nothing more than animals.” The power of hate is a both an effective mitigating factor in the aggressor, and an aggravating factor in the victim. In an Eve context, the power of propaganda is not merely to turn public opinion to or against a party, but to provide a tool for action and reaction. One’s own pilots find reason to act: namely, a reason to hate the enemy and kill him. And the enemy finds themselves placed in one of the most uncomfortable places imaginable: despised and ostracized in a societal context.

The most illuminating chapter in On Killing is titled “The Dark Power of Atrocity”. There is empowerment in death in a general sense, as well as killing in a specific sense. Hisec gankers, saboteurs, and local spammers in fleets all tend toward ‘tear harvesting’ as a motivation. Such atrocities can be a tremendous bonding experience for those who participate in congruent activities, and they can also be a source of a tremendous sense of righteousness when perpetrated well. “But once they have accepted the empowering process and firmly believe that their enemy is less than human and is deserving of what has happened to him, then they are stuck in a profound psychological trap.” By burning the bridges of humanity, by denying the humanity of those not of one’s own tribe, a genocidal view becomes ultimately self-defeating. Atrocity not only empowers perpetrators but also the survivors. “[I]n most cases those who attempt to wield atrocity as a systematic national policy have been struck down by this two-edged sword.”

When developing Eve policy, the ways and means of killing are always a consideration. Even hisec PvE corporations make this decision by opting out entirely, engaging the psychology of victims when engaged in battle. Some leaders adopt rules of engagement (sometimes derisively referred to as “e-bushido”) that simultaneously empower acts of aggression and mitigate its effects after the fact. And still others adopt a policy of atrocity, ensuring victory through the mental annihilation of the enemy “other”. 'On Killing' can give a thoughtful Eve leader insight into the relative merits and demerits of these coping mechanisms in states of virtual war.

[name_1]